Bucklers and Shields, Bigger doesn't always = better

Gameplay
#1

Hello, one of the things we haven’t heard a lot about so far is shields and how defense will work when playing the game.

All throughout gaming from the countless melee action adventure games I’ve played (Severance, Rune, Die by the sword, Mount and Blade, every single mmo out there, etc) no game has really handled bucklers/shields that well. In most games that have melee combat shields and bucklers are generally treated as “Buckler = crap starting item” and the biggest shield you can find = the best in the game.

This is simply not how this worked in real life or history.

The buckler was one of the most widely used items throughout the middle ages for many reasons.

Unlike shields it was not strapped to your arm, rather it was held in your hand by a grip. So if need be you could quickly let go of the buckler (IE someone grabs it or it catches on something). On top of this because it was small it didn’t weigh that much and you could move it quickly while fighting.

As well the buckler could also be customized quite a bit and used offensively. From simply striking your enemy , to have a spike that protruded out (to damage the enemies sword) to having sharpened edges (which you could use to cut your enemy) to having a “latch” that you could use to try and catch your enemies weapon and disarm him.

It would be nice if Kingdom Come would finally treat bucklers/shields correctly and not simply make them “bigger = better” but rather do them accurately.

Here is a good read over the buckler and historical references and history:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm#_ftn3

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Shields in the Game
#2

Very nice and needful post. I have one great publication on bucklers. It is compilation of all texts and images since 12. century to 18. century with commentary and all pictures. Unfortunately it is in czech, but I can still send it to you.

On the other hand buckler is great for duels but not for battles. It is not so good against projectiles. But you can always wear buckler on belt.

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#3

It’s true that bucklers are usually looked down on in games. Making them a lighter and quicker shield suitable for certain combat situations and easier to carry around would be a great choice.

#4

Dark Souls has great bonuses for using buckler. Fortunately is one of the inspiration of Dan Vávra :smiley:

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#5

Agree that bucklers really should be usefull. In an ordinary day setting where you carry a sword it is no problem to also carry a buckler… where a keitshield would be impractical and aggressive. And you can’t get is on your arm fast.
Carrying a one handed sword without a buckler is basically just stupid.

but I would really like a source on the
"to have a spike that protruded out (to damage the enemies sword) to having sharpened edges (which you could use to cut your enemy)"
A sharp edges would really not be practical when the buckler hangs from your belt all day long…

#6

I know about the spike, not about sharp edges. But combination of buckler and dagger in one hand is deadly…

#7

hooks, spikes and similar to help bind the enemy’s sword… sure that is easy to find in the scources.
But a sharp edge is not something I read about. And I do question the practicality of it since the buckler would usually be hanging from your belt… What if you bump into someone? There is a reason a sword is in a scabbard… it protects the blade… and it protects you and other persons from it.
And a proper strike with the edge of the buckler against an unarmored opponent will at least hurt and give you the opening to finish the fight with you sword… and against a properly armored opponent it would not have any effect.

Anyway, please give us a system where the use of bucklers makes sense.

#8

The sharpened edges I was talking about are on the boss , not around the edge of the entire buckler.

They could be serrated /sharp which could lead to cutting with strikes or such.

An example of this exists in the wallace museum’s collection of bucklers.

It wasn’t uncommon for the boss of bucklers to have other things on them, for striking, catching, etc.

Also some bucklers could be concave (meaning they bent inward) which could allow for greater ability to hold or deflect things and has been shown in some combat manuals and artwork from those time periods.

#9

Thank you for opening this topic, the buckler is also one thing i missed at the list of weapons.

As mentioned, it hat not been a weapon for battle but for traveling etc. it was great and quite popular, because not that big and quite easy to wear (compared to the londsword or even a shield)
Sword and Buckler also is the Combination of the oldest Fencing manual (the i.33) and it is quite sad that it is not that popular nowadays (not only does it nearly never comes up in movies or games, it is even not very known in historical fencing)

BUT, and that is the Problem i see, it is more complex than the Longsword, there are two hands to coordinate, to implement even a simple version of the i.33-sword an buckler fencing would be quite some effort…

About the sharp edge: There is nearly nothing you will not find a sample in some museum (there is one with a lantern ), but in the normal use, i think the ordinary round one with no spikes or sharp edges was the most common. I was (in the i.33 at least, later it changed a little) primarily used for cover (protect? Sorry my english is not that good) the swordhand, so it always was close at the hand and even with some practice there is always the chance that you might touch your own hand during a fight, i would not want that to happen with a sharp edge. :wink:

1 Like
#10

I would love to see this. The reality is that the buckler’s intended purpose makes it exactly the sort of shield you’d EXPECT from an adventurer wandering the countryside: A small, portable, personal defense weapon that’s easily carried and kept out of the way. It’s laughable in DnD-based games seeing people spelunking with tower shields, and from personal experience, anything larger than about a 24" round shield gets incredibly impractical to carry when you’re doing anything with it but fighting. It would be heavy to carry, and just get in your way.

I’d ALSO love to see the game account for the fact that full plate armor made shields obsolete to begin with. You generally wouldn’t see guys running around battlefields in full plate AND using a shield. Rather they’d forgo the shield and utilize heavier arms (halberds or other polearms, and longswords).

Personally, I’d always been an advocate of having equipment “sets” depending on the situation. For example, if your character is walking around adventuring, you’d have a “light” set, with lighter armor and equipment that would actually be practical in that situation. There would then be a separate “heavy” set for large-scale battles, tournaments, duels, etc. Y’know, the times when you would ACTUALLY use the full plate armor.

#11

Yeah, there should be some place for a good “swashbuckler”, non-armored guy with a sword and a buckler, who stays out of a battle, but still can easily dispose of similary equipped guy in the city. You don’t wear armor anywhere, but that doesn’t mean you can not fight well. Many games forget that.

#12

Great post. Yes I’d like to see some more realistic shield action in this game. I hope armor weight factors in as well. It would be sad if people in full plate armor and tower shields could catch archers or people with bucklers and light chainmail.

#13

TBH, the effects of the weight of plate armor is BADLY misinterpreted by pop culture. First, the weight isn’t much more than what a modern infantry soldier carries, while plate distributes the weight more evenly across the body, which makes it much less tiring to carry. Mail is actually going to affect you WORSE than plate due to the way all the weight hangs on the shoulders and hips (if you’re wearing a belt).

And as I noted in my post, you wouldn’t see guys running around in full plate with tower shields. That guy in full plate is going to be carrying a 2H weapon because he doesn’t NEED the shield.

#14

The average load of a danish soldier walking foot patrole in Afghanistan was 37kg…A full suit of armour and a sword would very likely be a bit less. (offcause that depends on the size of man wearing it)

Iam actually more mobile (when we are talking walking and running) in my medieval armour than I was in the gear I wore as a solider… But an fully armourd man should not be able to run as well as one without armour. (the acceleration and turning is the main problem since the weight works against you)

The armor part that really effects you movement is mail hoses/leggings… they are just horrible… but offcause by the 15th century they where pretty much replaced by plate.

#15

I’m reminded of the History Channel special on armor (back when History Channel actually CARED about such things as accuracy) when they had someone demonstrating full plate. Absolutely no loss of mobility. He was running, jumping, cartwheeling, leaping over fences, doing pushups, etc.

There was even a historical letter online somewhere written from a knight to his armorer requesting the man adjust the fit of his armor because it wasn’t fitting properly and allowing him to swim.

#16

There had been incredible big an heavy armor, where one is very limited, but they had been mainly used for Jousting, that was more like some kind of “sportswear” that had not been used for running around.

So yes, a more realistic use of Armor and Shields would be great, although many people would expect it in the distorted way the media shows them all the time.

#17

I prefer bigger if im in first line :wink:
Battle of Casorate in Milano reenactment

#18

In the first line you would probably be a farmer with a flail or something and no protection. :wink:
(Nearly no one wants to reenact as farmer, so there are normally a little bit more nobles then realistic in every kind of reenactment)

But as mentioned before: Battle is something completely different. If one is traveling, hunting, crafting(?) or whatever, a full battle equipment might not be that practical…

#19

So till now the defense purpose of the shield/buckler was well pointed out. But what is with some offensive mechanics. I think of bashing the enemy so he gets a knockback or even gets stunned when bashed to the head. Of course bashing speed and the intensity of knockback/damage should depend of the very shield.

#20

a short video to point out how a buckler is used:


[media]

i don’t know the guys, but i think it makes it clear.
it is a very fast way of fighting.
the buckler primarily protects the swordhand, is used together with the sword to block, and is then used to bash, either with the middle of the buckler or with the edge. and: the edge don’t have to be sharpened to hurt… it is the knockback you want.
remember that the edge of a normal shield also hurts… i had to learn that the hard way… even your own shield can give you a bloody nose… :-\

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