Two years have passed and no new arguments. Boring …
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I remeber the epic answer:
She does not want to be disturbed. If geroj @ProkyBrambora afraids her, I wouldn’t certainly try my luck. Telling doc to go and put his life in danger can be considered as a clever way how to do it, but can be kind of contraproductive.
Well it goes into the issue of having a choice between trusting a full time employed historian behind the WH characterisation of Cumans or random guy on the forum.
No, it shows that general standard of living within a small group of people may remain basically the same despite the society around them moving 200 years forward.
While Slovaks living 500 meters away from settlement like the ones I showed cook their deep frozen chicken breasts on pans with induction heating, these people use open fire to prepare a freshly killed chicken of dubious origin the same as their forefathers.
While a Slovak living 500 meters away is most probably armed with one or more firearms, people living in the given settlement will most probably not have a better weapon than knives and sticks.
If this is possible today in the age of internet when anyone can get to the other side of the world within 24 hours, I don’t see why it would not be plausible in the middle ages (in case I would accept your thesis about the armour being obsolote for the era, which I don’t).
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Well, all I’ll say is that we are aware of this issue, Asia formost.
But I cannot really comment on the decision to have this kind of equipment in the game.
No, Wikipedia is not our source. Yes, the cumans who invaded Bohemia looked probably a bit more European then they do in the game. It was a design decision to let them look a bit more “cumanish” then then they would have been looked in the reality, and I already confimed that:
But it is not totally off and completely unbelievable. Again, the difference is not more than 200 years, but less than 160.
Yes, there would be more cumans with more western armor in reality. But this would make it very difficult for some players to distinguish them from other factions in the game, making the Cumans more unique and recognizable.
The cumans would still have used their armor to some extend, the representation of this will be stronger in the game.
Even today, we often use military equipment which seems to be outdated. The B-52 is from 1952, the browning M2 machinegun is from the 30s, and this by one of the most modern armies of our time.
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I guess this thread can be very nice start of “KCD Realistic Mod” if some modder will take care of this. Certainly would be good reason for me to play KCD again after i finish original game.
Huh! My ZB.26 was designed in 1926 and made in 1928. Czech Army phased them out of the Military stockpile in 1998.
BREN machinegun, updated version of the ZB.26, was used by Irish Reserve Force until 2006, by India 2012, and they remain in use in Jamaica and a number of other 3rd world countries even today.
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Now to the body armor.
First are lamellar armors.
In XV century lamellar and laminar armors were not used by Tatars. The only souce of getting such armor is Timurids Empire, where by the beginning of XV century laminar armor was still most popular way of defense. (Lamellar armor meanwhile was rapidly losing its popularity).
It’s recommended to remove lamellar armor completely or replace them with combined armors (laminar with lamellar) like on pictures 5, 11 on this table:
I also would recommend to add laminar armors, used in Iran: stripes hammer harded to leather belts attached to each other.
And, of course, remember there should be only a few of such armors.
http://www.kitabhona.org.ua/libwar_armor/bobrovsa.html
cough MG42 cough this mans flu is extremely bad this year. Having 2nd coughing attack in last few days.
Btw today there is plenty of weapons in use that are considered as “most modern” systems up to date. And I believe that coming weapon systems will serve for very long time befory they will be replaced. (e.g. Gerald R Ford class, LaWS, Zumwalt, Armata etc)
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I know of mercenaries in Germany from the late 15th century which refused to fight as the armour given to them by the city was outdated. (20-30 years) They demanded new. So the city ordered new armour for a couple of hundred soldiers.
I don’t understand the argument with “these helmet were for nobility only”, well just remove the gold and other decorations and you have a helmet everyone can use. Less decoration --> cheaper. The only piece of armour I know of that was used only by nobility was the armet helmet in the 15th century. And also this is not 100% true. Actually the armourers only sold this helmet when a complete suit was ordered. Most of the time however a knight ordered such a suit, therefore you can argue that most of all nobility wore these.
Can someone please explain in detail where the difference between lamelar and laminar is? I know nothing about east european armour.
This effigy is in Budapest and dates to the year 1434. Western armour definitely was available at the time for the Cumans.
Lamellar armor is made of plates tied to each other.
Laminar armor is made of stripes tied to each other.
The helmet for the nobility is not necessarily distinguished by the presence of gold. Often the difference between a simple and expensive helmet lies in the field of assembly technology and design.
A simple example: the cuirass is expensive and pristizhnom armor inaccessible to simple infantrymen, the brigantine is cheap and accessible to all.
Helmets of elite warriors - they can not be many. And they should belong only to the commanders of the detachments.
Expensive technologies: a seamless dome or a dome with hidden seams, curved ribs, anatomical elements (half-masks and full masks), ornamentation and gilding, individual elements on the top of the helmet. You can not just take off the gilding and call it a simple helmet.
https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/optimized/3X/0/3/030e420270c4dec36d5945c459acf657ea861b4a_1_690x493.jpg
https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/optimized/3X/c/0/c03c7dec164199558b59c96359c41712924a2931_1_690x383.jpg
https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/optimized/3X/5/b/5b6f7b12fc45bfa84b0223f13212945ea88a1966_1_690x387.jpg
http://swordmaster.org/uploads/posts/2016-02/1454505251_shelom01.jpg
More simple helmets are made easier and not so exquisite.
The simplest helmets for ordinary soldiers.
I hope the visual difference is visible right away. If not - then I’m helpless.
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No, they aren’t supposed to look more european. Just take a look at the various frescos and manuscripts (something you guys probably didn’t do) featuring cumans in the 14th century, a lot of them show very lightly armed horse archers wearing felt hats and mail coifs.
Here are a few examples
Karaszko, 1380
church of Velemér, 1378.
Church of Székelydálya, Transylvania, 14th century.
Church of Maksa, Romania, 14th century
Chronica de Gestis Hungarorum, 1360.
Church of Bijacovce, Slovakia, late 14th-15th century.
I can post more if you want.
Well, then why didn’t you at least give them period appropriate equipment? you could have kept the “cumanish” look with 14-15th century equipment you know?
I don’t care wither the difference is a 100 years, 200 years, or even 10 years. History has repeatedly proven that people adapt to changes, even a decade makes a difference in how people dress, especially when they integrate with other cultures.
Well, firstly, doesn’t this go against what this project stood for in the first place? “historical realism” and “accuracy”. Secondly, as I said you could have given them period appropriate armour and they would have stood out just fine from the rest of the european factions.
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I think the problem was in the absence of a normal consultant when the first drawings of models and characters were created. Now to change - too big problems. We can only point out the problem. And hope that the studio will have free time to change something.
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Otherwise, it is up to modders to fix developers’ mistakes…
I’ll leave this quote here because I think that it reflects the problem of our dispute.
Люди видят что игра имеет высокий уровень исторической достоверности и они верят что за ней стоят не только прекрасная команда программистов и дизайнеров, но и внушительная группа историков. И все что они видят в игре - оно так и было в 15-м веке. И куманы были именно такими как в игре (именно такие - ведь у студии есть исторические консультанты
), и луки с колчанами носились за спиной (это ведь историческая игра - и вообще в Скайриме все лук также носят
Проблемы начнутся тогда когда люди будут указывать на игру как на источник - и по их мнению весьма авторитетный источник.
), и луки с колчанами носились за спиной (это ведь историческая игра - и вообще в Скайриме все лук также носят 
Rough google translation, I hope Mundhalai-khan correct it so that the meaning is not lost.
People see that the game has a high level of historical certainty and they believe that it is not only a fine team of programmers and designers, but also an impressive group of historians. And all that they see in the game - it was so in the 15th century. And the Kumans were exactly the same as in the game (just like that - the studio has historical consultants: smile:), and bows with quivers were worn behind their backs (this is a historical game - and in Skyrim all the onions are also: smile:), and nomads All fought in armor, on foot and on swords.
Problems will begin when people point to the game as a source - and in their opinion a very authoritative source.
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I doubt anything is going to change. The developers are in complete denial that their design choices for the cuman equipment are flawed. They seem to be very selective on what’s historically accurate and what isn’t, and all their arguments for the cumans consist of “100 years don’t make much of a difference”, “cumans didn’t change”. Also their fan base doesn’t seem to care as long as they can get their knights in shining armour.
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“People see that the game is very historically accurate and they believe that not only a great team of developers, but also impressive group of historians. And all that they see in game - was so in the XV century. And cumans as well (exactly like that - Warhorse has historical adivsers), and bows with quivers were carried behind the backs (this is historical game - moreover, in Skyrim everyone are carrying the same way) and all of nomads fought in armor, on foot and in melee.
Problems will begin when people will start using the game as a source - and, in their opinion, a very authoritative source.”
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