How to counter the "dumbing down": Advice for Warhorse Studios to deliver a true Hardcore RPG

Gameplay
#1

This is something I hope to bring to attention to Warhorse Studios, partly because they’re claiming that Kingdom Come: Deliverance would… deliver on it (no pun intended.)

I am talking about implementing Hardcore aspects of gameplay into Kingdom Come: Deliverance, part of which has already been fulfilled. (You have to eat and sleep, you have to repair your armor and weapons, etc.) But I am here to call attention to somethings that as far as I know, have not been addressed and I think they would remove from the gameplay experience, particularly the use of the “compass” system revealed in their livestream. If you haven’t seen it follow this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84AiE46erkk

Many of my points are inspired or directly taken from Samyoul Online’s video: The Elder Scrolls : The Dumbing Down, which can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTAhyR4o0

I am not claiming this to be original thought, I would just like to relay the concerns voiced in Samyoul’s video for those that are unaware of it and share some of my own thoughts on the matter.

Right, on to the topic,

First of all, which inspired me to make this topic on the forums, I think that the “compass” system
should be removed or at least changed dramatically. Samyoul makes a very good argument for this movement, better than I could, so I will transcribe it here for you with the knowledge that I agree with his point 100% and although much of his dialogue is directed at The Elder Scrolls, it can apply to all other “hardcore” RPG games in the market.

In Samyoul’s words: "But then came along Oblivion, and it’s quest markers.Although the game had a solid Journal system, the developers stripped out of the series (TES) one of it’s fundamental charms, that being the enjoyment of finding your OWN way around the world, and exploring the land.

What did Oblivion substitute this with? Quest Markers.

Little, floaty arrows that magically told your player’s character where he needed to go. Skyrim inherited this and took it to a whole new level. Players were transplanted from an RPG exploration adventure game and dropped into a catch-the-arrow walking simulator.

But if you hate having to follow Quest Markers, just turn them off. Don’t worry about them. Well, in Skyrim the “journal” system is so sparse in details it is impossible to navigate into an unknown area without the little arrow pointing the way.

Bethesda essentially gutted the “journal and quest” system and dumbed it down to such an extent that you simply have to accept that your character knows instinctively WHERE EVERY LOCATION IN SKYRIM IS, or where all of the bandits are hiding or who they should or shouldn’t assassinate.

And if you do turn the Quest Markers off, the “journal” system is so pasty and weak, that it won’t tell you any direction or specific details of your quest.

When playing the game (Skyrim) you can tell, clearly tell, that the developers intended you to spend all your time chasing a little arrow around with no thought to playing the game without it.

Now, when I talk about hand-holding, you can’t get a clearer example than pointing to exactly where you’re meant to go and giving no option to play it in any other way…It is sad that this kind of “follow-the-arrow” system is so common in modern gaming. So common in fact that I daresay that some of you won’t find an issue with it. Or if you do, weren’t previously aware of it’s condescending nature." (End Quote)

As far as I’m concerned, if Warhorse Studios wants to make a game that the hardcore community can appreciate, following this advice, among others, can improve what they already have in place.

The only point that I wish to bring up outside of Samyoul’s is that while I would much rather see a complete eradication of the “compass” system, I understand that some compromise might be necessary to achieve any ground with more casual gamers that will play this game who might rely on the “compass” system to solve all their problems.

But enough about me, what about you?

27 Likes
#2

I love the idea of not having a quest arrow. I think that having a map that you can look at for reference would be good as long as there are no player position or quest markers on it.

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#3

I always thought of the compass as an extension of the map system. If they wanted to aim for realism and you didn’t know where something was you could just ask around and have someone show you on your map. Then it just becomes a matter of intuiting direction on the roads (truthfully THIS is where the compass best serves the “casual” crowd as you put it… because they will be the ones not checking the sun or signs,etc.)

Personally…I get what you’re saying about quest markers. I’d like it if they didn’t float arrows over peoples heads and just had us depend on using the map and in game descriptions/NPC directions to figure it out… but map markers for locations are something I wholeheartedly approve of…and I understand why game makers keep the directional compass.

So I’d be fine with them keeping the compass and the map points…but just getting rid of quest arrows in favor of a more detailed journal system.

7 Likes
#4

I agree with you… to a certain extent. I think the very specific directions we are given, are a bit too much. I don’t like that we are pointed to the door and not the house, so to speak. I don’t have a problem with the knowing where stuff is, if we’ve already been told in the dialogue. The idea is that the character is told where the location is, but the player doesn’t necessarily want to hear the entire conversation.
In Skyrim, I think of the map as part of the journal. You mark down the places you have to go, instead of writing notes. I did, however, remove the player marker on the map.
Too vague directions can be a problem as well. A brilliant example is “Sid Meier’s Pirates”. If you played on one of the higher difficulty settings, and had the misfortune of getting a map pointing to “Somewhere North-West of Panama”. You had 2 choices: Spend 10 hours walking from coast to coast or restart the game.
What will happen if it’s too hard to find specific locations, is that people will give up and ask the internet. I would really love a more moderate navigation system, than skyrim.

1 Like
#5

I think I agree, but I dunno I’d have to try the game first to see how frustrating it would be to fix without arrow help. Usually I hate ‘follow the magic arrow’ quests and would rather be forced to think about where bandits might be hiding, especially if some clues are given. NPC: “Can you believe it? They say some big burly man has taken residence up in the abandoned tower. Nonsense I say, silly tavern stories when men have too much to drink.”

Then I think…aha! Tower! I don’t need an arrow to tell me that, I need clues to.

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#6

While I agree with @Seviteal that the “Follow the magic arrow” ideal is way too prominent in modern gaming, I think a lot of it comes down to how Warhorse or any game developer goes about writing the quests and the world around it. Honestly I really appreciate the fact that this point is being addressed, but I think that it is too early for us to see how the quests are going to be structured or how in depth the dialog surrounding towns is going to be. The key to all of this is going to be making everything intuitive. If the layouts make sense (Eg; a larger number of off-duty and on-duty guards when approaching the district with barracks and a specific guard tower, while peasants really have no reason to be within the area) than even the ability to mod-out or alter an overly simplistic quest structure would be feasible.

I for one hold all reservations until I see more of how they’re going to handle dialogue trees and information gathering.

#7

Let’s be cautious about sacrificing game-play in favour of game aggravation masquerading as realism.

It is, after all, a game and should therefore count entertainment as carrying far more import than stroking the egos of those willing to work through antagonistic content.

For the record, I detest the “hardcore hero!” concept. It’s primarily anti-fun for most gamers.

4 Likes
#8

Well, at least in Skyrim, NPCs gave you rudamentary directions. It wasn’t like Oblivion where you always magically knew where to go. Well except for the NPC which told you that you should find a corpse of somebody and bring them a necklace from it or whatever, and naturally, player character automatically knew the corpse is deep under water. Hidden under a bridge. I like to think that was Bethesda making fun of itself, buut… Probably not. Still, as far as I’m concerned, put in optional quest markers and design the game around the idea that they’re off. Problem solved for everybody.

1 Like
#9

Hardcore RPG? Like rolling die and writing down the damage?

Oh, you mean: no indication of what the player should do, except what the npc tells? And you have to write your own journal? That’s hardcore to the bone!

I would to have that as an option on the difficult setting.

1 Like
#10

Oh yeah, ideally, do what the new Thief did and put in massive difficulty customization. Because that’s awesome, every player can enjoy the game as he sees fit.

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#11

In Dishonored you can toggle every aspect of the HUD, for example, quest markers (arrows). I played it with everything turned off. I hope this will be possible in Kingdom Come too, so everybody can adjust it to suit their liking.

Map should be in the hands of the character (see Far Cry 2), no extra menu, which reminds me too much of being in a game.

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#12

Yup, that kind of customization is as good or even better in the new Thief. I really, really hope it becomes the industry standard. Altho Dishonored pissed me off right in the first mission where you’ve had to take an unconscious corpse of the uncle person to a safe spot, which naturally meant one particular dumpster, but the game didn’t quite bother to tell you that’s what it meant. That’s what I’m talking about when I say ‘design the game around the possibility of having quest marker turned off’ - thankfully, that was also the only instance where I’ve had a similar issue

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#13

:question:
In the first mission you tried to stop the assassins then escaped the prison and made your way through the sewers.
The only uncle (of Callista?) I know is the lieutenant or something who’s talking to Campbell. If you help him he runs away to safety. Can’t remember any dumpster.
btw: what I’ve seen of the new Thief looked stupid. He’s waiting for you to hold a button so he can smash some guys head. This destroys any dynamic of combat. Breaks the flow. Also, I think, Dishonored was a big influence.

#14

Oh, you’re right. Well almost, stopping the assassins is considered prologue IIRC. I mean the first mission actually give to you, with Campbell, and I fucking love that game for the very reason you have just accidentally revealed. In my playtroughs, I have always subdued him so he can’t raise an alarm once I take out Campbell - and then the objective to carry him to safety presented itself.

Well, time to do my ghost playtrough methinks.

#15

There is one way how to ‘save him’ so he doesn’t raise alarm, actually thank you and then disappear on his own.
But for the first time, I’ve missed the right dumpster and failed it.

#16

SPOILER???

You have to break the wine glasses then they will walk down to a secret chamber behind the bust. The lieutenant will then take a look at the painting and Campbell will try to stab him. That’s the moment when you choke or sleep dart him. The lieutenant will thank you and run away. :smile:

#17

Well one thing you can safely assume is that no NPCs will have any arrows above their head for any kind of quest marker. Dan stated in one of the update videos that he absolutely hated that system and thought it was dumb.

3 Likes
#18

I like the quest markers, and find them convenient as they save a lot of time of frustrated searching and let me get to the action quicker. But… ultimately I agree with OP.

One of the great things about games like Deus Ex and Morrowind was the lack of quest markers - you would be told where to go and what to do, and had to figure out the how to get there yourself. It could be frustrating, and time consuming, but ultimately was worthwhile - it was half the fun in fact.

I knew every inch of Morrowind. Every cave, town, ruin, guild house, store, temple, mine… I’ve probably put in just as many hours into Skyrim and Oblivion, but I’d be lost in those games without the Quest Marker to tell me where I was supposed to go.

Even the little icons on the compass telling you what’s nearby kinda ruins the fun - finding a hidden door in the side of a hill is a lot more fun when you stumble across it rather than tracking it down because your compass tells you it’s there.

8 Likes
#19

The two best ideas I can see here (IMO) are @rilzi and @Anzious, non-compromise and compromise respectively.

Like @rilzi I too think that being able to explore on your way to a destination or take the side route instead of following-the-yellow-brick-road is part of the experience. By going down a different path or taking the time to look around you might discover something you would’ve missed which can be rewarding.

To highlight a completely opposite example of what I just mentioned I will refer to Skyrim. (Not trying to hate on this game too much, it just highlights what’s wrong with the compass system to an extreme.)

I’m sure my fellow players of TES will understand this example:

Say you’ve entered a Nordic Ruin. This place has multiple entrances leading to above ground. Your objective is waiting on an overlook that one of these exits is fairly close to, and the Quest Marker is pointing for you to go through that exit. But the other exits, while nowhere near close to the objective as the one the game highlighted, will eventually lead to said objective.

This example points out problems with the compass system and with accepting the hand of the game to hold.

  1. How would your character, who has just entered this ruin for the first time, know where exactly to go?

  2. And more along the lines of @rilzi and my concerns, what will you miss by following the arrow? There could be all manner of loot, story based companions, books, knowledge, etc and you’ll miss all of them. By following that arrow.

1 Like
#20

Thief’s difficulty system should definitely inspire K:CDs if there is any form of difficulty system. Turning off HUD elements like arrows and stuff you shouldn’t have is great. But IMHO you should still have some form of marker so you don’t completely forget where you’re going - but it should be quite rough/general. I found Dishonored’s arrows to be really interesting - you always knew where your target was but you were left totally to your own devices to kill them. Also with the lieutenant: If you caused some form of alarm (IE hitting the ground with your sword) and then you disappeared, Campbell would run to his room and the lieutenant would just run away. That’s how I always did it.

I really felt Skyrim was an actually awful game after playing it for so long. The lack of depth and terrible combat ruined the replayability, yet to this day I can easily start another character of Oblivion and have fun. The dumbing down actually led to the game’s difficulty becoming something you could just game because you knew it worked. (Don’t have difficulty sliders that affect damage done and damage taken!!! Can’t stress this enough). Most of the animation cycles for weapons became too long because two Daedric swords one hit anything. Even with very extensive modding I found these issues were only ever lightly alleviated. This is something I cannot foresee happening in KCD, which makes me very happy.

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