Keep the Shakespearean language. Your fans aren't stupid!

Story & Setting
#51

An other aspect: It is not only english, but also other languages that are concerned.
German for instance. In Germany we had two different languages in the middle ages. Only very few people would undertand old Low-German from the northern part. The High-German from the south is what Martin Luther had spoken. It is not impossible, but also not easy to understand for modern Germans. Because of that, they had developed an artificial pseudo-medieval language at renaissance-fairs and medieval-spectaculum (Mittelaltermärkte). If they do this in KDC, I would go mad. “Werter Recke, wohin des Weges solch schnellen Schrittes?” Urgh!!!

Although I’m decried here as authentic-freak: I would really prefer good normal (modern) language but without slang words.

#52

It is always difficult to create the right balance between historical accuracy and playable story. Of course, the same problem arises in connection with our synchronization. Today’s English or former English? Today’s German or former German? Or even Czech? Subtitles? But it is certainly not in the sense of the player to use a dictionary, to understand the dialogues. As much more we are interested in your views and opinions to create the best results.

#53

I agree ^^ although keep it balanced so that the “uneducated” in game speak the language of commoners and not nobles. ^^ Would make it quite interessting

#54

Common language among commoners/smallfolk and more refined language from the nobility? I could go for that.

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#55

Well, I agree with Loksley. As a German and a historian, I would be doubly tormented by hearing any constructed artificial “Marktsprech”, which is another term for what some folks use on german Renaissance Fairs/Mittelaltermärkte. Basically the only form of language for commoners would be their dialect - even harder to understand for modern day speakers. Then of course the clergymen could speak Latin - but who besides someone like teachers or historians could understand that without subtitles? I suggest to use modern day language in all localizations of the game, but without modern words referring to modern concepts of society, i.e. democracy, equality of men and women, industrial ways of production and the likes. Possibly add in modern day dialects for flavour. Come on, northerners/southerners from all the countries, if you try hard enough, you can understand each other, but hearing the other’s dialect or even someone speaking dialect at all in a game will make it sound a little… immersive, I hope.

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#56

quote="Helena, post:11, topic:9537"
Now if Warhorse really want to go to the ludicrous effort of writing all their dialogue in authentic Middle English, finding actors capable of speaking it properly, and translating it all into Modern English subtitles so that players can actually understand it… I’m actually fine with that. Seriously, I would be very impressed. (…)
[/quote]

I like the idea of a game in middle English generally but all versions of English are equally not Czech which is very likely the native language of the main character. But since the english version of the game replaces 15century czech i think the modern english with some old vocabulary (maybe even period czech) to represent different ways of thinking is the way to go.

Also I agree with Tourist that Dialects would be good, they could also represent related western slavic languages or differences within czech. However the main character likely shouldn’t understand all latin and german perfectly so I think not translating that at all or only subtitling it (depending on the situation) would be the best representation. It might actually be an advantage if nobody understood what the low-german characters or the clergy are saying because neither does henry, so I think period and region accurate language could work great in some cases, i just don’t see how it’s worth it for english. Because it doesn’t add to the level off accuracy and takes from playability.

#57

Another way that crossed my mind is not actually going straight for historical English with the English voiceovers, but rather for the local Czech - the way that Russians do it in their games like Metro or in the STALKER (Ukraine). The voiceovers are in English, but the pronunciation is realized with a russian accent to underline the environment where the story takes place and the nationality of the characters.

That would mean either using Czech voice artists which would put the accent into the voiceovers naturally, or a “mock-up” acted by foreign voice artists like it’s usually done when someone plays a different nationality in a movie. This would be more place-accurate than historical English.

I think that especially a case of historical English put together with Czech words, names, terms etc. might actually get a bit troublesome at some points.

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#58

This has been already discussed in a different thread. I personally consider using czenglish in the game as a pretty terrible idea. It would only make ingame people sound like foreigners in their own country. If the game will be voiced in english (and I think it’s sure thing for many obvious reasons), we really shouldn’t try to make the language more historically or “place” accurate by adding some ridiculous accent. It won’t add on accuracy a single bit, simply because the language they speak is english… The least what can be done is to make them speak proper english (whether shakespearean or modern).

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#59

Just like with everything, it would pretty much depend on the approach of whoever is in charge of the voiceovers. Czech accent can work with English just like any other (Russian, French, German, we know all those well from movies and they do work), but you have to handle it reasonably and avoid exaggerating it. It would need a bit of work (well, just like the historical English would I guess…).

#60

It won’t be fun to play a game in a language that nobody speaks, it is also a bad business decision for Warhorse. I don’t know if anyone before me linked this (or a similar) video, but I certainly don’t want to play a game in a language that nobody speaks anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE0MtENfOMU (just listen - don’t read along)

#61

Honestly, I haven’t read the whole thread.
On the one hand it might be quite nice to have this “shakespearean” language, if only for the atmosphere.
On the other hand problems will come up with the choice of this “dead language”. Not only that there will certainly be quite a lot native speakers that won’t understand everything but possibly even more non-native speakers, such as myself.

I’m not looking forward to a game that will be much story-driven but one has to read and even re-read the conversations because no word is understood. Better stick to current english, maybe with some appropriate accents (but from speakers that really have this accent and don’t act like they do).

#62

You wouldnt understand any of the language. “old english” isnt saying thou and thy it is an almost entirely different language. Why have a game speak something you dont understand. At that point why not just through in just random noises. The point of having great dialog and story is so you can experience them. What you saw in the video is not shaksperean language, its using a few older sounding words to set the scene.

#63

It would be quiote a fun to see ‘older’ English in the game, though I know it’s notappropiate to regional setting… - But I would acceppt it as a convention, due to me not being able in any way to understand czech, or any of its predecessors… and I won’t expect anyone to go with old or middle German.

But, what I read in haste of this fread… with “old English” there would come a heap of different symbols for some spoken vowels and consonants. For instance the “th” has (had) different qualities than it has today: " Þ/þ " … or “Ð/ ð”…

Although I would kind of like to some old/ middle English in KC: D, I understand, it would be pretty hard to understand for non- as well as native speakers. 'tis not a question of being dumb, but also of readability of texts. Plus, Shakespearean English wasn’t even “accurate” back in his days. It is and was supposed to be kind of artifcial, or at least poetical. I won’t expect any harbour working mate to speak like “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day…?” - He would propably “go for the kill” right away… and for a drink.

Well, finally, thoughout the train of thoughts I feel like I am contented with WH taking modern language as well (for there they know, how it is to be spoken…), but maybe simply watch it closely to eliminate certain phrases and/or words, that are especialyl in use or have different meaning today. And I think most of ye would feel the same.

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#64

I love how you have the old English in there please keep it. It’s a great atmosphere for it.

#65

Unsen fruntliken grut tovoren.

Ersamen guden frunde, deme gemenen beste to gude unde profite unde na sunder liker begeringe de hir ere kopp zerbreken, hebben wy eendrechtigen mit unsen leven borgeren upgenomen, ingesettet unde geslaten,dat men in unser speele nit sprekken sulle Mittelniederdeutsch, nor veer dagh lange. Nemeliche dree weken vor deme sondage to vastelavend esto michi, den anderen up den sondagh oculi, den drudden up den palmensondagh unde den veerden uppe den dagh aller apostell! Gode bevolen! :wink:

This is the medieval language they have spoken in north Germany where I live. Please raise your hands if you understand this and want to have it in the game! :wink:

Thank you Tourist, that you backup me with the artificial “Marktsprech”. I fear, that If Warhorse will order a translation in “old German” from a normal studio in Germany, this is excactly what they will get.

Dialect: I am a big fan of “Sharpe’s Rifles”, a TV serial, taking place in the napoleonic wars. The lower class soldiers speak English with a strong dialect from all over the country. As a non-native speaker, I only understand half of the jokes and can sometimes hardly follow the plot. It is very immersive, but sometimes to stressfull for me and I have to switch it off.

On the other hand I would not like the idea to change the dialect or accent to a German accent in the translation. I just imagine somebody asking something in a modern north german Hamburger-accent and the other answers in bavarian accent! German readers will know why I get goose bumps from that! Maybe it would be very funny, but I really think it would break the immersion for me!

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#66

isn’t that even more fake than what they’re doing? what’s the difference between contemporary modern and elizabethan modern?

i feel if they’re doing it in english, they could essentially do it any way they want, of course without “yo dog, whassup” level of present day english and sland.

#67

Both are equally fake; the difference is that one is much easier to get right than the other. It’s relatively easy to write dialogue in contemporary English since that’s what modern people already speak, so they have a good idea of what sounds realistic and natural (even when excluding modern slang). But Early Modern English has a whole lot of differences in grammar, syntax and vocabulary, which makes it far more difficult for a modern person to get a handle on. If you’re prepared to put in the time, effort and research it would take to write dialogue in accurate Elizabethan English - as opposed to the dialogue in the trailer, which sounds like a bunch of LARPers trying to do ‘Olde English’ and failing miserably - you may as well go the whole hog and use actual 14th-century English, or 14th-century Czech for that matter.

i feel if they’re doing it in english, they could essentially do it any way they want, of course without “yo dog, whassup” level of present day english and sland.

They could, but as I mentioned above, whatever they choose needs to be consistent. You can’t just randomly mix up language from different time periods and expect people not to notice - can you imagine if they took that approach with weapons or armour? This is a game aimed specifically at history buffs, for crying out loud. People will notice, and they will care.

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#68

So … as a German speaking player I wish firstly a German voice output (!) in a language style that I please understand right away (!!!). We are talking about a game and not a German studies. Or a study of Old English or other languages ​​/ dialects. You might think about doing something later using the game (eg as Mod) - the should then apply for the respective Ministry of Education and pay.

And another thing, there is a difference between reading and endless dialogues has time to make sense of the meaning, or whether one is successively addressed in a speech afloat on all sides. If you then not get it and make incorrect decisions which is very annoying for an average player and holds great potential frustration.

also…als deutschsprachiger Spieler wünsche ich mir zum einen eine deutsche Sprachausgabe (!!) in einem Sprachstil, den ich bitte auf Anhieb verstehe (!!!). Wir reden hier über ein Spiel und nicht über ein Germanistikstudium. Oder ein Studium alter englischer oder anderer Sprachen/Dialekte. Man könnte darüber nachdenken, sowas später mithilfe des Spieles zu machen (z.B. als Mod) - den sollte dann aber das jeweilige Bildungsministerium beantragen und bezahlen.

Und noch etwas, es ist ein Unterschied, ob man Dialoge liest und endlos Zeit hat, sich einen Reim über den Sinn zu machen, oder ob man in einer Sprachausgabe flott hintereinander von allen Seiten vollgetextet wird. Wenn man dann nix kapiert und falsche Entscheidungen trifft ist das sehr ärgerlich für einen durchschnittlichen Spieler und birgt hohes Frustpotenzial.

#69

I can do some guessing at best (with the limited time in a video game dialog), but Henry wouldn’t understand it either so why should the player. When the game eventually get’s to the battle of Grunwald and introduces some Teuton characters Mittleniederdeutsch would be appropriate but it still shouldn’t be the main language of the game. The question is how much mittleober/hoch deutsch does the main character understand and how much of this would the characters in game actually use? But that’s all up to Warhorse.

#70

Hi Thiomay,
we talk about localization/translation of the game-dialogues.
The starting-question was about “shakespearean Englisch”.
If they translate the dialogues in English (as like they are in the moment), and coose an oldish “shakespearean English” (maybe even with dialects of North-/Southengland), what will they do if they localize/translate it in German for the German market? Or Spanish, French, or whatever?
Will they use oldish language in German, Franch, Spanish, too? Or even really medieval language with dialects, as it is to be discussed above?
My postings points in that direction. I’m not talking about what language the gamecharcter would have spoken in that timeperiod (whereas even there it would be a small chance for him to speake German, but that is another point).

My point ov view is: Please use modern language, but avoid very modern words.

Silly exaple… not: “Hail to thee, my jolly companion! Put down your heavy burdon and spend some joyful time at my brave little fire.”, even not: “C’mon bro, drop your stuff and chill with me…”, but maybe simple: “Greetings my friend, lay down your arms and take a rest.”

Auf deutsch… Nicht: “Sey mir gegrüßt, edler Recke! Lege er seine schwere Last ab an dieser Stätte und ruhe er sich ein Weilchen aus.”, auch nicht: “He alda, schmeiss deinen Krempel da hin und chill mit mir.”, sondern lieber einfach: “Ich grüße (meinetwegen auch “guten Abend” oder “grüß Gott”) dich mein Freund, leg deine Waffen ab und ruh dich ein wenig aus.”

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