Religion, it's role, importance and significance in the story

I really hope they do depict religion accurately and don’t downplay it for fear of offending people (incidentally, the people they’d risk offending the most would probably be religious people … usually they don’t like to be reminded of how they ran things back then).

Even concerning the character, I mean, we’re playing a blacksmith in a relatively rural area. It wouldn’t make any sense whatsoever for him not to be catholic. To what extent he believes the whole stuff may be a matter of debate, but I think it’s safe to assume that the average person at that time did believe some version of it, so I see no reason to change that.

And that’s coming from a rather firm atheist here. But even though I don’t personally believe any of it, it is historically important. I’m also big on re-enactment, and when you’re playing a role, sort of, you try to act out the beliefs and ideas as well, even though you may not hold them yourself, and I really don’t see how or why this should be any different for a historically accurate RPG.

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Back in 1400 everyone was terrible to our modern day standard so I doubt it would offend anyone to depict everything accurate.

I have nothing against Christianity/Catholicism and it wouldntt bother me if lore reasons that the player was a cathplic (and let’s be serious he would be as everyone in this country would have been most likely) but what I hope is rather that it isn’t shoved down our throats or that we have to do a bunch or stuff related to the church if we choose not to.

Well, I think it depends on how you define “shoved down your throat”.
If it basically comes down to ceaseless proselytizing not in keeping with the setting or story (like, say, some priest running around screaming that “evolution is a lie! gays should not be allowed to marry!”), then I’d agree that that’d be wrong.
If, however, religion is portrayed as it actually was - and it did have a very large impact on society at the time, you will undoubtedly be doing things for and with religious characters (monks, priests and the like) - and if it fits the story in a way that makes sense, then I think that’s fine.

The thing is, the focus of this game doesn’t lie on “doing things however you want to do them no matter what”. You won’t be able to play a female plate-wearing sword-wielding “knightess”, because things like that did not exist in medieval europe and women were basically second-class citizens. Likewise, you won’t be able to play a philosophizing atheist who hates the church or wants nothing to do with it, because that is simply nonsensical in the historical context.
You also can’t play a sorcerer or run around with submachine guns in this game, for the same reasons: Those things aren’t historically accurate.

The way I see it, this game has a very clearly defined historical framework and some rather tight storytelling. The thing about storytelling is that you don’t always get to do what you want to do or what your “playstyle” is, when it doesn’t fit the story or the setting. Religiosity is part of the setting and part of medieval society in a rather significant way. If the game doesn’t reflect this, it’s not historically accurate. If it’s not historically accurate, it’s not what we were promised.

Seriously, who cares if you have to do some quests involving the church, religious figures and some such? What’s bad about it? I really don’t see the issue. As long as they’re constructed and told well, those quests could be amazing for all you know.

What I think people need to do is to learn to separate their personal preferences and worldviews from fiction they experience and enjoy. A game you play doesn’t have to reflect your view on religion or anything else for you to be able to enjoy it.
I’m, as mentioned, an atheist, but I happen to love historic novels especially dealing with the medieval era, and I’ll inevitably be confronted with religion there. So what? Does that make novels like The Pillars of the Earth bad? No it does not.

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No, not necessarily. You could simply be castrated…

As an atheist, I couldn’t agree more. Religion is hardly infectious.

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Im all in for religion if i can raid monastery and kill monks, with shield and axe of course.

I look back at the TV series “A world Without End”. In those times religion held a large amount of sway. It would be pretty neat if we could see some NPC characters we might like or dislike be hung as a witch. Maybe even changing the fate of our character because we might have helped either the witch escape or the church hang her.

And how would fate of someone who would be a nobody have any effect main characters fate? Beside i want that game shows what religion was back then with all its flaws.

Also there is game mechanical issue about that saving witch in distress, that would make you an outlaw in eyes of church and being on bad side on church would ruin main story if you are knight in service of lord or King.

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I don’t see why we wouldn’t sing in a church. Also @Cristari the goal of the developers is to be historically accurate. Religion was an important part of how people saw the world at this time. As Terry Jones mentions even science and medicine were considered ways to become closer to God. It was said even the search for the elixir of life was to restore man to his state before the fall. Also take alchemy turning lead into gold. It was believed gold was a perfect metal and that all things in nature strove towards perfection and so then all metals would eventually become gold. Perfection was viewed from a Christian perspective. So be prepared for a religious game because its plan is to be historically accurate.

Well, I wouldn’t necessarily call it a religious game. It is bound to be a game that involves religion in a way that is historically accurate, but that doesn’t make the game religious. For one, I’m fairly certain the game itself will not try to preach to or force the one playing it into a particular worldview (which what I’d consider a “religious” game certainly would). The game’s goal won’t be to promote a religion, spread it, or convert you. Those things are what a “religious” game would do.

It may seem trivial, but I think this distinction is important, because I believe that’s exactly the kind of fear people speaking out against this have: They don’t want a “religious” game. Neither do I. I want a game that accurately depicts what religion was at that time. There is a difference.

EDIT: For examples of what I would consider an actual religious game, I’d like to refer you to this Wikipedia article, I think you’ll see what I mean. Those are games not created for the sake of creating games, but for the sake of shoving a certain religion down childrens’ throats. Or to distance themselves from “secular” games without forbidding christian kids to play games entirely. I dunno which would be worse.

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Games are just another form of media. Movies, books, and music are other forms. When you condemn religious games, are you condemning all religious media? If not, why not? Are you specifically condemning religious media from a certain religion? If so, why are you not condemning media from other religions? Would media coming from the religion of Atheism or the religion of Humanism be called religious media?

P.S. If you reply please do so civilly. no offense is intended.

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Ah, now we get to the juicy bits, do we?
First off, don’t worry, no offense taken ^^ I actually rather enjoy discussions like this.

Yes, games are just one form of media among many. I’m not condemning religious media per sé, it always depends on circumstance and the intention behind them. With games especially, since many (not all, but incidentially, most religious games) are aimed at children, it really goes in the direction of childhood indoctrination, which is something I am strongly opposed to, because I firmly believe that the question of faith is something that every person on this world has the right to decide for themselves, and by extension nobody should have the right to impose their own religious beliefs upon someone else, not even their own children. It’s a deeply personal matter, and as such should be completely and solely at the discretion of each individual person.

As far as other media go, like I said, it depends. Christian books, for example, are fine. Until someone makes them a mandatory read in schools for religious reasons, of course. The same goes for any other religion, by the way.
Music … well, music is probably more of a matter of taste than any other form of media, and as such I can of course only speak for myself … but in my eyes, christian music in and of itself, fine by me. What really rubs me the wrong way, though, is stuff like “christian metal”. You may have guessed, I’m a metalhead. I see this genre not only as a classification of music on the purely technical side, but also as a subculture, one that commonly holds certain values and ideals (among those you’ll often find an oppositional attitude towards authority and a rather fierce individualism and independence; pagan influences and opposition to especially christianity are also rather common). Now, the problem with christian “metal”, for example, is that it often actively aims to become part of said subculture to inject christian ideals (which, for the most part, are nearly diametrical opposites to the ideals and values traditionally present in the subculture) into it - it’s basically missionary work of sorts. Not to mention that the music itself may be considered “metal” from a technical perspective, but definitely not from an ideological one, which is the reason many metalheads - myself included - do not consider it actual metal.
I realize I’m fulfilling Godwin’s Law with this, but the analogy works rather well here: Have you ever heard of NSBM? National Socialist Black Metal is - as the name implies - black metal that exhibits political, right-wing, fascist ideals. Now, in analogy to what I think about christian “metal”, I do not consider this kind of music actual black metal. I see it as a tool that’s used to spread fascist propaganda in a certain group. The passion for the music, for creativity, takes a back seat to political propaganda. I see something similar in christian “metal”: It’s a tool to spread religious propaganda in a certain group. Now, mind you, I may speak very generally here, but I realize there are exceptions to this, as with everything. Some christian “metal” groups maybe just really like the music from a technical standpoint, but want to display a christian image instead, christian texts, and so on, just because they personally like it. But as I said, that’s not really metal. And many groups actively proselytize, which is plain wrong.

What I’m getting at with this is … religious people are as free to use any kind of media as they see fit, just as everybody else. But at the same time, we all have the right to heavily disagree with how they do it and what they do with it. For me, personally, as soon as they attempt to convert people using those media as a mere tool, they cross a line. Your right to swing your arm ends at the other guy’s nose, and this applies to religion as well. If they keep it to themselves, just leave people the option to consume those media or not, I couldn’t care less. But there are organizations actively pushing, say, christianity into metal (handing out “metal bibles” on open air festivals and stuff like that), and that’s wrong. Just as it is wrong to force religious media on children with the intent of indoctrinating them - even your own.

As to your last question … that’s a loaded one, huh? There is no such thing as the “religion of Atheism” or the “religion of Humanism”. Atheism is not a religion, not even a worldview. It’s a single position on a single question, and nothing more.
Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance, not a religion. I know many religious people don’t (want to) see a difference, but there is a difference, and it’s a quite significant one at that.
So the question really makes no sense.

Oh, and - since I think I haven’t clarified that yet - no, I do not condemn any religion in particular. This discussion so far has been about christianity, since it was the predominant religion in europe during the medieval era, but my opinion about religion and religious media remains the same for any other religion, be it islam, hinduism, judaism, taoism, asatru (although I personally find it rather fascinating, but that’s a different matter), you name it.

Now I’m not saying your statement about humanism was wrong but it was hilarious when I searched humanism and the first words the wiki said were, “Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance…” :smiley:. Calling Atheism and Humanism religions was a little rash on my part. They are not really religions in and of themselves but they are beliefs that help make up a person’s own set of beliefs.

Now for some Google definitions! Doctrine is a belief or set of beliefs that is held and taught by a group of people. Indoctrination is teaching people to believe these doctrines uncritically. I don’t think anything should be believed uncritically and my own personal beliefs are based on evidences that I have seen, felt, or heard, physically and spiritually. I think it is okay for parents to expose children to religious materials as long as they are teaching the child ABOUT the religion. The parents can teach their child about their own views but it is ultimately up to the child to decide whether or not to believe in them as well. So teaching the child to also think critically is essential. Unfortunately there are people who will attempt to indoctrinate everywhere. They are unavoidable. Everything must be approached critically

I don’t think your analogy between video games and metal music was very strong though. While metal music is a genre inside the category of music, “video games” is a whole category. Metal music and video games may seem to conflict with some religions(less of an issue with video games), but I think it’s the general community rather than the genre or category in these cases.

Heh … yeah, I wiki’d it really quickly since I didn’t want to say something I wasn’t completely sure of. I’m an atheist, but I’m not necessarily a staunch humanist (although quite a few aspects of it are quite sensible, I think).
Now, I could go into the whole “atheism is not a belief but a lack thereof” thing, since you presented me with a great point of attack there, but I think I’ll spare us that particular one … ^^ I agree, on the whole, since I know what you mean by “belief” in this case (or at least I hope I do … you never know on the internet ^^).

Oh, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. In the end, knowledge is knowledge, and knowing about different religions is something that’s quite useful, I think. Should I ever have children, I’ll certainly try to teach them something about different religions and philosophies. I can even share my own conclusions with them, as long as I keep in mind that they’ll have to draw their own conclusions eventually. Critical thought is also something that should definitely be encouraged. Especially in school - even though I see problems there since teaching children to think critically would also encourage them to question authority - that of the teachers and parents as well as that of the clergy and the government. I can see why it’s not taught at schools, it’s dangerous to people in power. There’s a reason that for centuries teaching children unquestioning obedience was regarded as virtuous.

As to games and music … I think you misunderstood me a little there, it wasn’t indended as an analogy between those two. I was speaking about religious media in general and looking for some examples, and the “christian metal” one jumped out at me because I’ve had some personal experience with it ^^
So I wasn’t really comparing gaming and a particular genre of music.

As far as gaming goes, I do think it conflicts a lot with religions, noticeably with christianity but also very likely with islam (especially in extremely islamic countries like, say, Iran). This is, in contrast to metal (where it was due more to philosophical and ideological differences between the two), more due to video games often featuring content especially religious conservatives have problems with, including but by no means limited to violence, murder, sex (well, partial nudity, whatever, you know what I mean), sometimes even homosexuality (remember the religious outrage about games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age that allowed same-sex relationships between characters? Ohh boy), alcohol and drugs and of course magic (last I heard the Jehovah’s Witnesses were particularly disagreeable about that one, but the catholics aren’t much better). All those bad, evil, sinful things, you know. It’s not because game creators actively seek to attack religions or the like, it’s more the religious having issues with the content that’s offered.

Woah woah woah. Back it up. I’m assuming when you say right wing you’re refering to conservatives. Which american-conservatism (Because there is different conservatism in different countries) is in the opposite direction for socialism. American-liberalism (almost synonimis with with socialism) would be left-wing.

As for being against christian metal (a genre of music I’m not very familiar with) there are people who like metal music and happen to be christian so some like minded Christians get together to form a metal band because they like the music. If it has any popularity it is because people like that music as well. I know many years ago I searched everywhere online to find a Christian MMO because I wanted to play a Christian MMO and the closest I got was one that was theoretically in development. So I’m pro-christian video games and christian music and pretty much any kind of media (that doesn’t violate human rights such as the videos show here https://shoebat.com/ things such as Muslims in Siria skinning non-radical Muslims and Christians alive and using them as sacrifices. In slaughter houses like cattle. I would be opposed to that sort of religious video game)

Well, I’m not american, so I guess I don’t have the same connotation there that you may have. In germany, when you say “right” or anything similar in a political context, it almost always directly refers to nazis or neonazis (we have a word called “rechtsextrem”, which would literally translate to “right extreme” but is often just shortened to “rechts” or “right” and always refers to politically right, fascist extremism). So no, I’m not talking about american conservatism here ^^

As far as christian music goes … you’ll note that I have already pointed out that there are indeed groups like that, yeah. And to be honest, that’s completely fine with me, even though as I said, I would not call them “metal”, because in my eyes it takes more for a band to be considered “metal” than shredding guitars and having a fast drummer. And if they sing about how they want to praise their god all day, that’s a concept that is, as pointed out, diametrically opposed to anything you’ll find in metal. Now I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to do it, they can do whatever they want. But please, guys, don’t pretend it’s something that it’s really not.
But yeah, those guys really don’t bug me much. The guys that use music to proselytize, to try and convert people who usually do not care in the least for that particular religion, those are the ones I have a problem with.

Same with games. If there are games out there, developed with christian themes, by christians, for christians (and whoever else may want to play them, although I can’t imagine any non-christians wanting to, especially since the production value of the few christian games I’ve seen isn’t exactly overwhelming - which, as an aside, kinda reinforces my point that it’s really not about a passion for gaming for those developers) then I’m completely cool with it. At least as long as they’re not used in attempts to convert or indoctrinate people (especially including children, and I absolutely cannot stress this point enough).

Now, as far as religion in mainstream media, and particularly mainstream gaming goes … if it’s not a game with explicitly religious themes, developed by religious people, for religious people, then I think (actual real-world) religion does not have a place in it, unless (and this is important) it depicts the religion(s) as they are - or were, in the specific case of a game like KCD - without either endorsing or condemning them. That last point is also very important, I think, because for all the evil committed by religious extremists around the world (one immediately thinks of muslim extremists, but those are not the only ones … there are christian extremists as well, and they commit crimes just as hideous), those extremists do not represent the whole of their religion. So a game that reviles muslims and depicts all of them as crazed murderers would be equally as bad as a game that depicts christians as, say, some sort of perfect, pure, stainless first-class citizens, solely by virtue of their being christians, or a game that reviles homosexuals as being against christian teachings, or some such (and be mindful of that I’m still speaking about mainstream gaming here, if they intend to market such a game predominantly to christians, hell, let 'em do whatever they want).

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I mostly agree with that. It’s good to specify what you mean in regards to politics as I stated. Different countries use english words with a completely different meaning. I was talking to a friend of mine who moved to the USA from turkey and he was confused as to why I was a conservative or “right-winger” as some say. So I patiently explained to him what conservative views were and apparently in turkey those same views are considered “liberal” while conservative=facist (like as he put the current people in power in turkey). On another note, though I’m a homosexual and a christian I have no problem with Christians teaching homosexuality as being evil. (oh also I agree there is no perfect Christians, also I agree there are some extremist christians, however the reasons islamic radical extremist are seen as the bad guys are because their numbers are vast and are becoming a sweeping majority by killing all of the non-radical muslims in many countries while spreading their radical teachers all over the world, you don’t find this as much in christians as most christian radicals are looked down upon by everyone including christians)

For instance I’m opposed to forcing churches (in america) to perform gay marriages because if a church doesn’t believe in it why make them act in away that is not aligned with their belief. If I find a man who I love and who loves me back. I don’t need a church or state to make that love official.

Now here’s where I agree with you whole heartedly I would not enjoy a game that says you need a microphone and to speak into it praising allah or god or jehova or buddah, or shiva, or any other god. That would be proselatizing. However we have no worry about that in this game. Even if we had to go into a church while a sermon is being preached to assassinate someone or build up rapport with the locals I wouldn’t mind. That sermon that’s being preached might be interesting it might be crazy talk. So long as it’s historically accurate to the sermons preached in those days all it does is add to immersion and knowledge. I don’t expect my wiccan friends to suddenly turn christian because they sat in on a sermon in the game. Heck they might have wanted to seduce the priest or you might be in there to expose the crimes of the priesthood. (If i’m not mistaken in past ages sometimes churches were used as a public forum of sorts) so I think they’d have to go pretty far to make this a conversion based game. Also I think that’s far from their intent.

Also I have great respect for you and your views. You seem like a great person. I’m glad we can have a discussion without offense. (something that I don’t get a lot from my own countrymen. Almost everyone here likes to be offended it seems)

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Yeah, it’s funny how one phrase can have completely different meanings between countries … ^^

I didn’t mention it before, but I realize that there are much more extremists in islam. Heard a great analysis on that from … I think it was Matt Dillahunty (one of those guys from the Atheist Experience - you can find them on youtube, pretty entertaining at times ^^). He said that the muslim world, as opposed to the “christian” west (well, it’s not purely christian … ^^) never had to adapt to changing circumstances. With christianity you had several revolutions within the religion, as well as the age of enlightenment and the increasing secularity within the last century, among other things, that forced the religion to adapt. None of this happened in islamic countries, they’re not used to the idea of the religious elite not ruling people. And the religious elite in turn never had to adopt a more accomodating stance towards other religions and worldviews, either. With that in mind it actually makes sense, sort of. They feel threatened in their way of life, just as the catholics did, no doubt, back in the day when the great schism occurred. The only difference is, the extent people coud go to back then was trying to eradicate the individual heretics, whereas in a globalized world with advanced weaponry you can go to completely different extremes to protect your views and way of life, especially when you believe firmly that your god commanded you to do it and you’ll be rewarded for it.

I’m actually against churches being forced by law to marry gays, as well. If they don’t want to, that’s their prerogative, there are enough churches already that are more than willing to. That’s not really what the debate is about in the first place, as I understand it the actual, legal rights that come with marriage are the real issue. Those should be valid for any couple that wants to marry, regardless of sexual orientation or whether or not they married in a church. Love is love, is it not? So who can say they have the right to elevate one kind of love over another?
But I also wholeheartedly agree with you that you don’t need validation, not from anyone. Love is something that’s between two people (well, usually) and in the end concerns absolutely nobody else. Should I ever marry, I want it to be a different kind of ceremony, where vows that two people give each other are the only validation needed. But then, that’s just me, and I’m a hopeless romantic that way. Can’t help it ^^

I agree, visiting a church in-game during a sermon wouldn’t be a problem - why should it be? I actually rather enjoyed that last mission in Assassin’s Creed II, for instance. It’s not every day you get to assassinate a pope :slight_smile:
But yeah, in case of KCD, an accurate representation is key, I think. I already liked the little snippet of gameplay at the end of the campaign in this regard - the way the baron(?) and his men were talking to the monk in that cutscene fits well into this idea that while religious authority was definitely seen as a source of power - by association as well as by holding it oneself - that didn’t mean that the nobles who played at politics with religious officials no more than chess pieces necessarily respected these officials that much. If that makes sense.
But in the end, I really do trust Warhorse on this. They put a lot of dedication and research into each aspect of the game, so I don’t think they’ll slip up here.

And thanks, likewise. I know what you mean, “being offended” really seems like a trend over in the US these days. The amount of people I have seen on the internet flaming and bashing others because they said or did something “offensive” is staggering. Guess they want people walking on eggshells, trying their hardest to pay attention to everyone’s feelings and all. But the point is … why am I responsible for people taking offense at what I may say? They should realize that it’s called “taking offense” for a very good reason - because it’s always taken, never given.

I make a point of not taking offense ^^ (well, usually. Unless someone really rubs me the wrong way, but then they had it coming). It’s more healthy for everyone involved, not to mention the conversation ^^