Strange combat system?

The animations are very clear. The threatened attack is clearly telegraphed from the guard held, and the follow on attack will behave as if the ‘ending’ posture of the previous attack were being held as a guard.

There are some variations arising from swords being off position from a parry or a cut, as the animations are partly procedural in response to physics inputs.

The mouse movement is only to select a new guard before a cut is made, or to switch guards once a cut is demonstrated in order to feint, delivering the cut along a new line. Precision isn’t needed.

Dead parrying or blocking is accomplished ‘automatically’ by holding the “q” button, and similarly to real fencing is mostly instinctive with minimal options for decision making, and no opportunity to attack directly from it.

While real longsword fights emphasise simultaneous meisterhewen or master cuts - ones that cover the opponent’s attack while striking the opponent, the game uses a tempo based parry-riposte system more suited to game play. Here you leave an opening, permitting your opponent to attack in a known or expected way, and you cut into his attack and immediately on displacing his weapon strike into the target. This is done by leaving the block ‘off’ and making the action to parry in the ‘instant’ of his strike… Parry risposte is riskier, you have a greater chance of being struck in the opening, but if you can work the timings is really effective at striking an opponent.

A final method of striking safely is to move while near the edge of his measure, voiding his attack and while it is still in motion striking along the same direction as his cut.

All of this is based on a pared down system of German Longsword, and sword in one hand, but the techniques are workable, both in reality and in the game. So much so that I use some aspects of the game (decision making and distance management - plus multiple combatant variations) to inform real fighting with steel federschwert that I do as a sport. This is not something I can say about any other game.

When he goes high, he will strike to the head, if his hands go low with the point rearwards he will cut from low on that side. The other positions usually strike sideways between the ear and the armpit, but there are some variations in the guards used, and some can fall more diagonally. Almost always the cut will fall from the side the guard is in to the opposite point(s) of the star, he will draw back, clearly telegraphing the attack intention and giving a limited window to move, which can void the attack, or to enter a defensive frame - or alternatively to prepare to finesse the parry timing and to seize the attack from the opponent.

This is fairly difficult to see in the beta at the combat arena, as performance in this area is not very good, and it is better to experiment with the various bandit groups you can find on your travels (one or two are much easier than 4 or 40, so not picking off more than you can deal with in sensible).

I have some quibbles with some minor details of it, but overall it is among the best combat systems I’ve come across, and I’d rate the WIP system as a 7/10 or more, with many of the things I found issue with being interactions between ‘unfinished’ armour and weapon databases and some odd values for certain items.

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Both agree and disagree.

First of all, when did I say I do not want different angles?! There is no combat system without them. This is why i bolded the word bit. Feints and blocks do not work at all. From 10 tries I get like 1 of them. Not because I’m bad at fighting, but because the time period is often incredibly short to click all the buttons and move your mouse.

I do not agree with the camera shaking in combat. Fighting should have emotional and sound effects on you, but should totally not affect my conciousness. Sometimes I have to pause and get my eyes straight. There is too much of a LEFT RIGHT LEFT DOWN UP DOWN DOWN LEFT. I would like those shakes to be mowed down to 10% of their current strenght. Leave the flashbang effect when you are hit, but stop giving me eye cancer when in combat. The hard blow thing is true though. We shouldn’t be able to recover fast. You must be able to start beating a guy and do not even let him recover, because that’s kind of realistic. Though, I think there must be something really hard to do at this moment just to get away from your opponent and realise what’s going on.

As a conclusion- games should not be realistic in a shaky way. See-when we are in real life, we either know that we will turn our sight in a direction or we close our eyes. That is why games should keep that off. Games should be visually stunning in a good way.

With every blow you step, for to cut without stepping is foolish.

As to the specific points you raise.

Feints, require no precise timing at all. For this example I will start with a threat to the top opening, and deliver the cut from my lower left… Move the mouse sector to the top, press and hold the attack button. Continue holding the attack button while moving the mouse to the lower right. When you release the button the cut rises from your lower right. Done with any pace at all it will offer at least a chance of striking the opponent. Note that the upper lines have a longer measure than the lower ones, so you may be slightly out of measure if you misjudge, and the opponent can still respond in the instant by parry/riposte or a voiding step. He will not able able to merely block though.

For the block, you simply ensure that you have some stamina available (retreat if not) and then press and hold “q” - the sword will be brought to respond to each attack as needed.

The position of your weapon makes certain openings more likely to be attacked - this can be useful in planning your own next responses - with attacking after a void down the same line being very difficult to deal with. It does also change the timings of cuts and blocks, and some combinations can be slower to reach which could result in a weak block or a failure, so while active blocking isn’t necessary it can improve responsibility and provoke some types of attack you may prefer.

Parry/Riposte also has some variation in timings from the relative positions of the weapons, and whether they are in motion. Here you need to have “Q” not pressed as the attack begins and to press it in the early part of the incoming attack. It is primarily a ‘finesse’ technique though and is strongly impacted by the character’s fencing skill and individual weapon skills. If you are playing as Henry the squire you will have a somewhat easier time of the more complex tasks than if you are Henry the diplomat. This is especially true of the devices (combinations), which can be awkward to reliably set off.

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as the token italian, not always, but in the context of this game, absolutely

Blocking is bugged to hell in the beta, and almost never works for me, unless i have a shield but even then it’s only 10% of the time when it functions.

Absolutely! Exactly what i am experiencing!

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The entire beta is extremely unpolished, has received zero major updates and is in now way a representation of what the final product is going to be. I wouldn’t let it set your opinions on the game.

It’s really more of an alpha if anything, (although the alpha was more stable for me, granted it wasn’t even a quarter of the content, and size that the beta is).

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I agree. But up to a point. The thing I don’t agree with is that I can’t set my opinion on the game now. The bugs and such issues will be fixed, but the combat system is a much more complex thing. Not going to be changed imao.

The combat system in beta was in no way final version, they released beta to gather feedback so they can modify it accordingly. The beta was released 1 year ago, that’s a lot of time for work. Obviously they are not gonna change the basic skeleton, like physical model etc, but there is a lot of things they can tweak.

I would rate the combat system at a 7/10, my only 3 issues with it is how fast the stamina depletes from attacking, the angle changing is a bit too sensitive and causes problems while parrying an enemy’s riposte because the mouse shifted a millimeter to the right. Then there is this issue: I whacked an unarmored foe in the face and they didn’t die.

I have not played Beta but in youtube videos I get a strong sense of the tempo aspect of swordfighting as well as the pace. I can also tell where most of the attacks are coming from by the visual cues an opponent provides. It seems to me that the challenge is learning how to anticipate what is possible for the opponent to do next. Similar to virtual air to air combat, the opponent’s attitude in 3D space can dictate what he/she can and cannot do. Once you learn to do that, you can start to “operate inside the enemy’s envelope”, effectively shackling the enemy into doing what you have already anticipated, as you remove option after option that the enemy can take. This cerebral aspect of combat is challenging.

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I think it has been acknowledged that the E3 build still has some placeholder stats (or modified stats for show purposes) - the sword appears to have exaggerated hit damage across all of penetration/slash/blunt, the halberd looked relatively weak in the summary stat. Armour values looked inconsistent and weirdly gathered into the set suits, and there was at least one highly suspect value (a 16.4 weight undershirt for the ‘heavy armour’ set).

For my taste the protective value of stamina looks to be too complete - my experience of being hit by a sudden attack is that being rested has no impact on how much a hard blow to a fencing mask or padded shoulder hurts - moving so it misses, blocking it partially or completely or closing in so that the reach is too short for an effective swing - well these are the only factors that make it hurt less.
Once stamina (or the need to defend because protection is ‘good enough’ to exchange hits against an unarmoured opponent) is exhausted, metallic armour with adequate soft protection underneath should offer a more nearly complete protection still. A mask doesn’t cease protecting the head when you make the error of attacking or parrying on another line - a chance for forcing compliance only when stamina is exhausted and a chance for causing damage even when there is full stamina with a suitable attack would make more sense.

Hopefully there is still some tuning effort intended along these lines. Otherwise I will happily join forces with someone interested in modding to this end on release.

Just use strafe and you’re going to be almost untouchable. :smile:
Also, this combat system is ok, i like it. Yeah, there’s the problem with combat star, that don’t let you to switch fast to your second opponent, but it’s still the best one.
P.S If you have enough FPS(I don’t :face_with_head_bandage:). :wink:
P.S.S And you’re not wasting so much of stamina.

A post was split to a new topic: Zpětná vazba

I’m not a big fan of the combat system, nor do I hate it. I am getting better at it. I am not a fan of all the camera shakes when walking or riding a horse, ugh motion sickness.

The best combat tip I can give is to train with Capt Bernard with your weapon of choice until it’s over 10. Strength and agility will increase on their own as will warfare and defense.

I tried fighting the Runt early on in the Vipers Nest quest and got my ass handed to me. I trained and went back after training, sword at 17, an he dropped in 2 hits., cut scene quest complete.

The combat is fantastic, you just need practice!

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@TarNaugrim very good video my friend! And rather skillful display! If not for that headcracker perk, it would have gone on just a tad longer lol.

Excellent video showing the combat however, good job.

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Thank you. I wish there was a way to turn perks off.

@TarNaugrim Yes I think that some of the perks are a little overpowered.

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