Women warriors of the 13 century

“We” don’t know for sure.

The sagas mention them.
Naturally we can’t trust them 100% but they do mention things like the discovery of Iceland, Greenland and north america. Discoveries that have been proven by archaeology and other sources.
But even if the person who wrote them down tried his best to be truthfully they where not written down until centuries after the events.

I also believe that some of the christian written sources mention female warriors, but not 100% sure.
But again, when a christian monk mention vikings attacking, they properly did, but many of the details can’t be trusted.

Also there are examples of viking age graves where females have been buried with weapons. Something that have traditionally been interpreted as the person being a warrior.
Weapons=warrior.

But in modern archaeology is more common to say that weapons in a grave only prove one thing… that there are weapons in the grave. That the person is a warrior is an interpretation .

As I don’t have the time to read through the entire thread :open_mouth:
Are there sources for this statement? I’d be much interested.

Joan d’Arc

Hua Mulan

Mu Guiying

These are all the women warriors (when two of them are legendary), I know.

One does not need to delve into the history book to answer this question. Women are clearly outmatched in comparison to men in almost any physical activity in which they can compete. They are completely outclassed in every physical sport, every physical martial art, every physical anything. Even if you approach this from a tactical mindset (because it seems people believe that it would be commonplace for a woman to outmaneuver a man in combat), female chess players are separated from male competition because they are absolutely outmatched in this regard as well. The simple fact is, is that women were absolutely not prevalent in combat throughout history, and the very few females that are called upon from our history does not change this. You can postulate about how someone who is completely outmatched in strength could theoretically beat their opponent, but that does not mean anything when we are talking about the big picture in which there are hundreds or even thousands of soldiers fighting. If you can entertain the thought of someone who is completely outmatched in physical prowess beating their opponent, you should be able to entertain the thought that they would lose. I have spent a lot of time in martial arts, and fighters are separated in weight classes across every single martial art, not just the ones I have spent time learning. So please, stop pretending that weight/strength has nothing to do with the outcome of a fight. The average woman weighs about 140lb and average man weighs about 190lb - that’s a solid 50lb difference. Not to mention the fact that women carry more fat than men on average.

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It really is more about technique. I am sub 110 (gained muscle, lost fat over the summer), and can easily parry or wind against much stronger/heavier opponents - while I have no doubt that I have to work a little more on the angles to get the results they aren’t especially hard to achieve.

Harnessfechten is different, but again strength in direct blows isn’t too important, and point alignment and leverage is more important than raw strength. If I could afford harness I would probably suffer a bit more than larger opponents, because although mine would be significantly lighter (my gauntlets are around 15% lighter than a medium sized pair I was mistakenly shipped) I would still be encumberd slightly more in proportion to my weight… However I still don’t think that weight is the first and most important factor. It certainly isn’t in blossfechten.

At least one of those examples - Joan d’Arc wasn’t a fighter though, rather a figurehead. She was present on the battlefield but wasn’t trained nor engaged in fighting.

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I understand the point you are trying to make, but strength =/= brute force, which is seems to be an underlying point that people keep bringing up in their posts on this thread. I am not saying that a stronger fighter will overpower their opponent by brute force, I am saying that everything they do, they can do with more force while still being controlled and be of proper technique. I’ve done BJJ, and smaller people can win much like how you assert the same with your sport, but they still separate weightclasses because there is the inherent advantage I just spoke of. I never said that weight is the first and most important factor, which seems to be a mis-characterization of the opposing viewpoint that is brought up repeatedly throughout this thread. My point was that it was a significant factor, and when combined with the overall performance, endurance, and robustness of the male body, females are outclassed. This rolls back into the point made earlier in the thread about being a footsoldier in these armies, there were no vehicles. The big picture point that is being stated here is that it is not a travesty or a huge historical err for this game to not have a female warrior, which is what the incredulous tone in the OP implied.

And yet, in Chinon castle she somehow managed to impress the king and nobility with her mastery of riding and martial arts.

Two are not from euorpe. and as such totally irrelevant.

And the last one got her position because she was a religious fanatic. There is no evidence that she was a trained warrior.
If anything the opposite. The fact that she was not trained was used as evidence that she was a messenger from God.

I just wanted to say, that they are all the women who took part in a war that I know.

That don’t make them warriors.

Medieval armies, just like later on had plenty of women involved in the logistics of running an army… Fighting was just not something they did.

I meant women who took part in battles.

The saint was a figure head. Nothing more. A position she got by insisting that she was messenger from God.
That makes her irrelevant… and there is no evidence that she was a trained warrior.

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I challenge this.

I think this pretty nicely sums that post up:

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I think it sums up this entire thread as well.

This thread is still open?

chooses flood gates
This is it, our last march. The last march of the Ents.

That’s fine, let me help you out with that:

And before my point is muddied by the opposing viewpoint, I’d like to say that I don’t think that women are less intelligent than men. My point was that it is ridiculous for people to believe women could fill the gap of physical inferiority by simply outsmarting or applying better tactics than their male competitors. Some women could, but it’s not a significant point to make unless you believe that the majority of women could do this. We are talking big picture here as to why it isn’t so crazy that the game isn’t presenting female warriors, not why no woman could ever beat a man at fencing or why a woman couldn’t be a modern special warfare fighter.

EDIT: And just to add, the female grandmaster would probably be able to beat 99% of the world population at chess, but that’s has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Much like there are female Olympians that would destroy large swaths of men at their specialty.

Thank you, I googled already :slight_smile:
I’m challenging your reasoning. You say it in the same breath with physical inferiority which would indeed mean, that women in general are worse at chess than men, which there is no evidence for.
Did you see the Russian fighters in the Battle of the Nations this year? There is a reason they win every year. The sport is widely popular in Russia.
When you have more contestants to choose from it’s no wonder they are overall better.

If you know all that and it was just an unlucky example, I apologize sincerely for letting the Ents out :blush:

PS: If woman could win by outsmarting men in general depends largely on how they grew up. I don’t know if there is any example in history or other cultures when a situation like this came up. Otherwise it is all uncertain and speculation …

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But I didn’t say that she was a trained warrior. And she somehow managed to impress the king with her mastery of quintaine: a game of nobility, the goal of game was to drive a lance through a small ring hanging on the chain.