Combat, Blocking, and Parrying in 0.4

Gameplay
#62

With “neutral stance” I mean a kind standard position of the sword for defense. Like e.g. in boxing having your fists risen before your body and head. That’s the “neutral stance” in boxing. In sword fighting it’s probably just holding the sword in front of your body in order to be able to react to attacks. When you look at modern sports fencing it’s usually holding your sabre in front of you directed towards the chest/head region of your enemy. In martial arts the standard position depends on the fighting style (most visual representation in classical Chinese animal inspired Kung Fu styles known from Hongkong movies).

In terms of gameplay I mean a neutral position that doesn’t cover any direction (compass has no red indication). I don’t know how this works with a gamepad but with mouse/keyboard it’s impossible to do so and that makes combat needlessly difficult and clunky. You always are in one of the five positions indicated on the combat compass. A neutral, “centered” position, to which the player automatically returns after every action (or by clicking a button) would make directional attack and defense actions much more precise and intuitive imo.

My critique with blocking is centrered on the automatism of the system. For parrying you obviously need skills because you actively have to press the button at the right time. There is no reason why blocking should work without that since parrying and blocking are basically the same in the first, defensive step. It’s imo just useless and having it as a “panic function” only takes away from the tension of the fight. And walking backwards basically has the same function already. So I would abolish blocking (also frees one button!) and unifying it with parrying. So blocking and parrying would function the same way in the first step. They player would have to realize from which direction the enemy wants to hit and move the mouse/joypad to the correct direction in order to block. A successful parry would require another, well time attack as a second step, following the block.

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#63

When I first started playing the combat I would switch my stance depending on the enemy’s stance. I thought I could parry more effectively based on what the opponent was going to do. Then the training guy told me I could hold the ‘q’ button down forever and I will always block. So i guess my stance doesn’t matter when it comes to defense. That right there was a tiny let down. I try not to use the ‘q’ button except for timed parries now.

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#64

I am not a huge fan of the automated blocking either its fine if it was apart of a lower difficulty setting but I really feel like the combat is already setup for directional blocking and it would feel natural to have it.

I also would change stance based on what the AI was doing because I instinctively felt that if I do not block from this guard it will not be successful.

So I avoid blocking altogether unless I am being spammed with combos (happens allot with the final arena fighter) otherwise I parry or dodge.

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#65

Does it matter to which side do I dodge? Eg depending on attack direction?

#66

In my experience with it so far yes.

its hard to be positive though sometimes I cannot tell if it was bad timing or bad direction choice. I wasn’t even able to dodge with mouse/keyboard only with Gamepad (we will blame that on my lack of skill with mouse/Keyboard v.s. the combat mechanic).

#67

I agree but I think the stances are overused and it’s tedious to always change stances in a longer battle. I would prefer a standard, neutral stance which you only leave for attacking or blocking/parrying, based on what the enemy is doing. That sounds more “relaxed” to me (without making the gameplay more simplistic, quite the opposite) and more visually attractive.

Of course it would be still possible to always be in a different directional stance - but without forcing the player (and the KI) to do so.

And yes, automatic blocking with Q is completely pointless and overly simplistic, taking away much of the tension and anticipation and reflexes that should be needed of the combat. If you do just want to avoid hits altogether walking away is always a viable option so it’s not even needed as “backup” option.

#68

this kinda goes hand in hand with the realistic combat mechanic though.

Watch some longsword fights from some tournaments they are always in one guard or another and shifting guard to counteract their opponent.

#69

Swordfighting is about seeking for the openings (both in space and in tempo), so it is natural to change stances. It is always a question though, how much should one pressure these changes. Personally, I found different stances with the sword and buckler somewhat more useful as these restricts the possible effective attacks somewhat less than the longsword’s (realistically it doesn’t matter overwhelmingly much how much someone does this wand magic, 90% of the attacks will be a top-right strike still), but I guess it’s all down for personal preference.

#70

My friend,
KC:D was marketed in Kickstarter as a pure PC game, not console. Console version info came later and was uncertain by that time.

The fact you play PC games with a controler (!) is your own choice, but most hardcore PC gamers play with the best combination of all - mouse with keyboard. This is the exact thing which makes the PC a way better platform than every console out there and this will never change.
So the mere fact @warhorse gave priority to a controler over m+k, even in this early stage, is troubling at best. I sincerely hope there won’t be any lemons out of it, because it will not be a first time I see a perfect PC project turns out to me ruined by console scam…

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#71

I’m wholeheartedly against the “neutral” stance idea. The different authentic guards the fighters can assume in game now are definitely superior, although yeah some form of directional block and parry would make it even better despite the fact that even with auto direction i am struggling to parry effectively.

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#72

The Kickstarter campaign page disagrees with you

That is making a big assumption there, just because it currently functions better with a controller does not mean they prioritized the controller.

This is the first build of the combat with a year until release. While not being exclusive WH has always made it known that PC takes priority, issues with keyboard and a mouse controls isn’t a sign that they have abandoned that motive.

#73

I guess I’m a hardcore (what ever that may mean) PC gamer of 20 years or so, and I use both KB+M and a controller depending on the game, without prejudice. KB+M for fast twitch shooters, and a controller for slower paced games such as this. I prefer the finesse of speed and motion a controller allows, that the KB+M does not. So far this game works better for me using an Xbox pad just as Witcher3 does. Some games simply work better with a pad regardless of platform.

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#74

The Kickstarter page actually proves me right - why the stars over Xbox and PS? :wink:

As for the lower part of your post, I very much hope you are right! As I said earlier, it happened before that devs abandon the PC master race for the sake of consoles. I will believe that PC has a priority when I actually see it and feel it, not hear about it, nor read about it…

#75


.
That last paragraph right there should sum up the asterisks meaning for you. :grinning:

I have tested both on my PS3 controller and keyboard and mouse. I prefer the controller but I truly have no issues with either control type I can successfully do everything I can with a controller using KB/M.

I think the keys for starters really need to be remapped and have an option to customize them, some things aren’t as intuitive with KB/M as they are with controller.

The learning curve is real - :sweat: :angry: :rage: :rage: :weary: :frowning: :open_mouth: :grin: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :moneybag:

As for the difficulty in switching stances I personally have experienced little issue with it but I also use a trackball mouse which im positive makes a big difference.

this is the exact mouse im using.

Overall I think there needs to be more optimization things on controller aren’t peachy keen just currently better then the KB/M, but that is only true for combat.

Just like in any FPS you have much better precision in archery using KB/M.

Lock picking is all but broken with a controller (seriously if anyone has actually picked a lock with the controller speak up).

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#76

:smile:
It´s only a small assumption, because THE BOSS (Dana) prefers to play with controller. Look at the videos…, and what the boss prefers…
I hope WH can optimise KB+M.

The easy way to win the arena fight is to kick them out of place. :wink:

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#77

It’s a question of time. For example holding your sword above your head has no purpose if you don’t want to attack. It just depletes your strength and stamina. A real fighter would always try to avoid loosing stamina or strength and therefore choosing a kind of neutral “best” stance.

The sword fighting seen in tournaments has imo little to do with actual fighting. It’s more for the show. Real fights are much faster with quick changes of position once you want to attack or defend. These stances systems like depicted in the game look artificial to me. And on top of that they are not real fun with mouse/keyboard at least. It just feels weird and not intuitive while using a mouse. And I think for gameplay reasons alone (precision!) a neutral middle stance would be a good idea. You could still use different stance if you want to do so (as could the AI). Being forced to do so all the time is imo tedious and the longer a fight goes the more tedious it gets.

#78

Neutral stance wouldn’t erase stances. It would just enhance them by a “sixth” stance that would make the system less (unncessarily) complicated and tedious, especially in the long run. It’s still a game and should be fun, or not? And in its current implementation it’s really no big fun on with mouse/keyboard imo, especially because of the tediousness of long fights connected with the imprecise targeting and clunky mouse controls.

What do you mean with “auto direction”? You can only automatically block but not parry in the current system (which is bollocks but that’s how it is)…

#79

In our modern times do you have any better examples?

This is the tournament fighting I was referring to.

Im curious what you define as real fighters then, because as far as I am aware there aren’t any swordsmen dueling to the death anymore.

what would you suggest to make them better? What in particular makes them seem artificial to you? Im not disagreeing just curious on what your take on it is.

I would like to see a centered stance maybe Highlight the reticule in the center of the star, but I would not like to be forced back to that stance from each attack.

The system already works well in the sense that I make an attack and then I end in the stance that has the closest relation to the end of my follow through. If the mechanic auto snapped back to the center I would feel like the game is playing its self a little.

You can parry, you just have to time it properly. I have performed successful parries with both keyboard/mouse and gamepad controls.

You can see several successful parries in this video I recorded. (get owned in any case).

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#80

I noticed in your video at 2:09 that you parried an attack from your right even though you were in the high stance. I thought you need to be in a mirror stance to successfully parry… and tonight I also parried some attacks where I believe I wasn’t in the correct stance. So how exactly is it?

It’s very hard to get the timing for either parry or dodge right. I aim for when the enemy starts the attack animation (that is, not when he winds up the strike, but when he unleashes it), but my success rate is below 50% (dodge is even worse). For dodge, do you just tap the sidestep button or do you hold it? I managed to dodge both ways, in one fight I dodged 3 times in a row by holding it, but I couldn’t reproduce it afterwards.

Overall, parrying/dodging feels very unreliable right now, attacking seems a better option. Even if I get counter-attacked, I find it easier to parry a counter-attack than a standard attack.

How do you parry a stab?

#81

Huh and here I thought it was just me being a drunk :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: …but glad to see that was only partially the issue.

Coz man lock-picking that chest with the controller is impossible!

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