Gender/Race Controversy? (And Christianity)

Story & Setting
#2

Slavery did not become popular in the 17th century. It had been popular well over a thousand years earlier and remained so.

Thank you for backing the game, I sincerely appreciate it. However your research into the subject of slavery is very incomplete. For example, institutional slavery was an old concept in the pre-Colombian civilizations in the Americas, two thousand years ago. You seem to be referring to European slavery, especially of Africans.

Please bear in mind that serfdom replaced the very popular slave institution in the Middle Ages. Also, during the Crusades, slaves in the hundreds of thousands were taken, if the slaves taken by both sides are counted. Also, the very famous St. Patrick was sold, as a boy, in the slave market in Dublin, Ireland. That was the 5th century. It was a thriving slave trade in Ireland, long before Patrick was born.

Slavery and Christianity are buzzword controversies today. My own opinion is that we do not need to fan the flames of those subjects in KC:D, both from an historical standpoint, and from a “best not to get into that” standpoint.

I feel that Warhorse will treat gender and race roles as facts of the world in the game, not as dialogues. In other words, the Church was an established fact, as was the roles women played, which are, happily, not as limited as you suggest. The game will reflect that, I believe.

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#3

Aye, you make really good points. I told you my research was brief, merely looking up the terms of post-Roman African slavery and the age it appeared in. I’m aware of former forms of slavery dating back even to times before Christ.

I did not mean to merge the terms of Christianity and any sorts of controversy, I simply wanted to discuss the implementation of radical beliefs in European medieval society.

However thank you for your reply, your criticism is educative and thus well appreciated.

#4

Well you raise valid points yourself. But I wonder if being ‘heretical’ is a path you cannot turn back on. If the villagers label you a heretic…you’re a heretic, I should think, no matter what. I can’t see how their minds get changed back. Even the rumor of heresy would make you an object of comment.

#5

True, though when you become a heretic you’d quickly find out that they should load back a save. I’d also suggest that if your charisma is good enough you might be able to convince NPCs individually that you have ‘repent’.

#6

I would add a few points

  1. Slavery was also popular during the early medieval period, say till 11th century, in the central Europe. Central European Slavs were always in fight with each other or with Frankish empire, and during these wars ALL sides took prisoners as slaves. Slaves then were sold to arabian/jewish merchants and transported in large numbers to either middle-east or Spain. In fact there is a good reason why “Slavs” and “slaves” words are so similar - Slavic slaves were very common and well known. The practics of slavery was later stopped by church, because church authorities clearly stated that christians must not be taken as slaves, and almost whole Europe was already christian that time.

  2. The question of being heretical is in fact very important in the time and area where KC:D takes place. Because it was the time when many church reformists arose, criticised the church, and eventually started a new christian “movements”, that were persecuted by church as being heretic. Few years later all this resulted in the Hussite wars, that turned the situation in Europe upside down. But it must be said that you can only be “heretic” if you are a christian, but you explain or do some things differently than the official church.If you are not christian at all, you are “pagan”. In 1403 there were no pagans, but you could find many heretics.

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#7

To add to this.

Most slaves in the Crusader states where inherited, prior to the Christians taking them. The slave trades conducted in the Muslim world reached millions over the years, and their victims ranged from African, to European, to other Arabs, and Asians.

Not to mention it was easily one of if not the most brutal slave trades in history. Most of the children who under went the Children’s Crusade were sold as slaves in Barbary, and Tunisia. Slavery was much more prevalent in the Islamic world, than in the West, and in fact was practised nearly every where, yet the west is the only one shammed for it.

@Aerody

Here are some threads worth checking out. @DuxNormanorum makes some really good posts, and you realise that the Medieval world was not really a dark and terrible place. You’ll find good answers for your questions on heretics in there.

https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/t/religion-in-game/7297/22
https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/t/the-role-of-the-church/9076/10

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#8

Basically, ‘heretic’ was someone who disagreed with the catholic majority. But not because of their lack of faith, but because they thought of themselves as the true christians, following the example of Christ.

Generally, while I admit some may be right (Pelagius), most of them were just wrong as history showed.

And as for the role of women… from the oldest times of mankind, women were protected and stayed at home, leaving men to do the rest - fighting, working outside… Nothing wrong with that.

#9

There is no controversy in facts and less in history. And then less in a video game. I would like the game to be accurate, if it’s good, bad, nice or ugly i don’t care. If it is accurate with history, it will be nice and good for it’s purpose.

#10

@SirWarriant Thanks for sharing these posts! It seems a lot of people agree that the display of ‘radical’ catholic beliefs can make this game’s story and background a lot more interesting than it seems already.

Now the only question left is controversy. It’s doubtlessly being embraced by the community as a historically immersive factor though I still wonder exactly how this was mannifested in the Holy Roman Empire and how (and if) it will be implemented in the game.

#11

@DrFusselpulli I was hoping you could clarify WarHorse Studios’ standpoint on this topic tomorrow in your morning. Though if you’re too busy I understand. You have got to be very busy from what I see. :wink:

#12

On the topic of gender:

As far as I understand women were pretty much dependent on men, though there were some exceptions one of which I think were widows of wealthy individuals, who after the death of their husband became equal to men in a lot of ways (not sure if this was the case in 1403 specifically).

Another thing is that during the Hussite wars (few years after the game takes place), women took a more active role and partaked in processions, torching of villages, throwing stones at the enemy etc… I’m not sure what was the position of nuns or if they had any special privileges at the time. Then there is the informal power of women, which was probably significant. :slight_smile: After all someone had to care of stuff when young men went to fight their wars.

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#13

Next on the list is women which from what I’ve been informed by every history class about the middle ages I ever took that they only had submissive roles in medieval-european society, being limited to becoming a maid (or prostitute?) in most cases.

First of all, got back at tell your teachers that they should not teach topics they clearly don’t know anything about…

Most women would be helping their men run the farm… since most of the European population was peasants.

When we look at the towns we do find cases of Female inn keepers, female craftsmen (everything involved in production of clothing, pottery, bookbinding and a number of other crafts) and there are also cases of female merchants.
(usually working with their husbands, and sometimes running the show as widows)

And they could rule noble houses… and even kingdoms.
The medieval period have a number of strong women rulers…
Empress Matilda, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Joanna of Flanders, Joan, Duchess of Brittany, Margrethe I of Denmark (and ruler of Sweden and Norway) and obviously a bit later Isabella I of Castile.
and many more.

Many of the limitation of the rights and options of women didn’t become the norm until after the reformation… in some areas not until the 18th century.
16th and 17th century Prussian court records have plenty of women running their family business and going to court in the own right. By mid 18th century, this is no longer the case.
Dutch women could own property in their own right and marriage didn’t change that. (After New Amsterdam became British… the dutch women there lost this right)

Just like burning witches at the stacks was something done after the reformation… not during the medieval period.

Iam not saying that the two genders had equal rights or opportunities… but saying that they could only become maids or prostitute is just pure nonsense.

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#14

I see where you’re coming from. The termology of ‘maid’ is very discussable especially around medieval times. By maid I also meant to include housemaid. However there are many crafts considered ‘girl-like’ mostly involving safe work that is in not much requirement of physical strength like weaving and it’s good that you have put it out here for recognition on the topic.

Remember when I wrote this I added on in most cases considering by far not all females are royal, noble widows or Dutch. Although I find it mindblowing ‘witches’ began being ‘dealt with’ after what is considered as the dark ages. With all that said you clearly did a hell of a research my friend and I credit you for that! :wink:

#15

Medieval woman (I am talking about common folk) is rrally hard to look at. There were cased in which woman serf did more than man, sometimes feudal lords even let them work on their fields, or rake care of their stables. Women were important factors of medieval economy, eg: A feudal lord that has a big ammount of sheep, so a woman would have to produce wool, especially clothing, also women played a big role in the actuall courts as cooks,maids sometimes even stablemasters. Feudal lords usually didnt care for gender (except thoose very religous ones, since church found women to be a lesser gender), as long as his serfs worked.
As for medieval cities, and I am talking about Proto Reneisssnce and early reneissance, women usually had no obligstions (The patrician circles), and they were really cared for, as for less fortunate and poor women, wećl they usually had to help their husbands, although, some guilds usually didnt allow women to work.
As for nobility. Women were not respectef unless they were politicaly strong. Older women, or mothers of lords/kings were usually well respected and had a big influence, but daugthers and wifes werent cared for (usually), and they were just product of political alliance, so they had to scheme their respect. Fun fact:Chess figure queen was inventef because a spanish queek was so strong in political way, that scholars had to honour her in a way.

#16

we should be able to go around claiming the virtues of atheism and fedoras imho

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#17

Slavery did not become popular in the 17th century. It had been popular well over a thousand years earlier and remained so.

Slavery has been ‘popular’ for almost all of the 6,000 years (eg. Akkadians) of recorded human history … it was only relatively recently (19th C) that national leaders (driven by Christian religious ideology / worldview) began changing the international narrative around the inherent value … and ultimately the inherent rights, of all human beings.

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#19

isabella then

#20

“well over a thousand years earlier” does not mean just 1,000 years ago.

I realize that the nuance of English may not be as apparent to some here as it is to others, but the term “well over” means “greatly in excess of”. It is my opinion that 6 is greatly in excess of 1. Your opinion may vary.

#21

these political “controversies” in video games are just stupid
same as killing nazis in new Wolf “controversy”

#22

I don’t think it’s killing Nazis that is seen as controversial. It’s the fact that Bethesda is using far left extremist slogans, used by Antifa ( a violent domestic terror group), and capitalizing on the hysterical “everyone i don’t like is a nazi” craze gripping the U.S.

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People are being beaten in the streets, and violent politcal riots are happening, because some dumbasses (mainly in the media) are telling people it’s okay to assault people who are “nazis” and in their view anyone to the right of Stalin is a nazi.

They also made a “punch a nazi video” which is the slogan of Antifa. So i can understand why people are upset when Bethesda is basically showing their support for a terror group, that has been perpetrating acts of violence for the past two years now…

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