German vs. Italian armor styles, circa 1470, Which do you prefer?

Feel good about yourself now? Got that self-esteem up and everything! :smile:

See, Warrior Rose actually did put effort to prove me wrong in my view, and we all got smarter in the process The sooner you realize the point of an argument is to find a solution and agree on it not to ‘win’, the easier your life will be.

Warrior Rose said what I would have said, anyway, so that freed me up for snark.

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Considering how this argument would have ended much sooner if you had just googled the weight of medieval armor, Ambaryerno can be as informal and rude as we wants, I say. If you have been told “Extant examples of field-plate only weighed about 55 pounds” and “modern soldiers gear weighs more than plate”, spare us all a face-palm and just google it before you respond with saying “NUH-UH” like an 8 year old.

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Very common. Mirror polished full harnesses were rare. A common soldier wearing a munitions grade helm, brigandine, spaulders, and tassets were quite common.

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just lol @ anyone picking the italian style

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Haven’t you seen my previous posts? :stuck_out_tongue:

To clear things up for all people here: A commoner (let’s say levy or merc) wouldn’t wear a full harness as that is way to expensive, at best he can expect munition grade armour (Owned by their liege and probably not well maintained by half the accounts!). That’d be along the lines of padded armour (arming jack, gambeson, etc etc) and a helm and hopefully jack chains and if I’m really lucky some gauntlets. For a better equipt soldier you could expect a breastplate as well. It really depends on region, cultural influence, liege lords wealth, and his willingness to provide better armour.

The gist of it is, why pay alot of money for some whelp of a farmers boy to have good armour? He isn’t properly trained in combat and will likely die when battle comes. Now if it was a professional standing army, that’s where it’s different, they are soldiers, they are trained and know how to fight properly so it’s more likely they’d survive in a battle so I’d rather give them the better armour (brigandine, bascient, that sorta thing). Or at least to me that’s how it works.

The more common such armor is, the less sense there is to use a weapon like sword, because you won’t be able to deal damage with it. Unless you can aim said sword in a manner that makes you attack precise enough to hit the weak points that aren’t (so well) protected by armor. This leads to another question: how precise is combat targeting and how viable is sword combat versus an armored opponent?

Well, first I’ll start if with how I think you don’t give levies enough credit. I agree that it depends on the region’s wealth, but you forget that the “whelp of a farmers boy” could pay for things himself just fine, and Bohemia was relatively wealthy in 1403. Also, after the Black plague hit, peasants became a lot more valuable, and thus were paid much better and treated much better.

Second…

Did you even read my comment? Did I say they had full harnesses? No. I didn’t. And the armor I did describe would be very affordable, especially when you keep in mind that polishing would be up to 80% of the cost of armor, which means that knightly armor that cost 8 pounds could be obtained for only 1 pound, and would be every bit as functional.

Lastly…

The Middle ages had very, very low casualties. The chances of his survival were quite good, actually.

Well, if you study late medieval casualties, specifically how they died, you see that the vast majorities of wounds were on the arms and head, hits to the chest and back are rare. Also, the armor I described wouldn’t help too much in a fight with swords, it would mostly protect the wearer from missiles and lances.

That’s why a significant chunk of wielding a longsword is made up as half-swording.

Yes, but I was asking if that level of sword-fighting is in the game. Last time I checked combat videos I only saw a character being able to attack legs, arms and head, no precise attacks as such, unless they are put into some special moves, such as counters or attacks against enemies who are out of stamina.

This is how it is currently implemented already in the alpha.

There are no implemented finishing moves yet but they are to come.

Currently all the half swording techniques are apart of a combo or a counter attack and are limited to pommel strikes.

A Swiss farmer could actually get it for free from dead Austrian knights. :wink:

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I did overemphasise some things, you’re right. I am aware that soldiers didn’t die by the number (only in a few rare pyrrhic battles).

Isn’t it an awful way to go? Those wounds we’ve (as historians) recorded are often pretty brutal, an example is a soldier with an open face helm being slashed by a sword, it bit straight through his nose (diagonal, like tyrion lannister), straight into the maxillary sinus, and through his teeth roots. Furthermore, from that he did not die, his upper lip would have been hanging on by literally a thread and blood streaming down his face. He then dies by a perforating blow to the head later that battle… Ouch!

But yes, first aid was pretty comprehensive back then in Europe thanks to (dare I say? Hospitallers!!) the cultural bridge between Islamic and Western medicines and practices throughout the age. To which was steadily advanced and it’s very very very interesting to study!

I did, I just thought you meant full harness. Yes, I agree, very affordable as it’s munitions as I also said (or was trying to say, though I did state full harness I was referring to a matching set all proper, sorry.)

Bohemia isn’t where my specialty lies, so I was unaware of it’s GDP.

Didn’t take into account, very good point. Though I’m not sure about Bohemia but some places they weren’t treated that much better at all.

Isn’t there a record for levy requirement for arms, such as bring a stated weapon? I know that happened in England with levy’s bringing polearms reminiscent of billhooks, scythes, etc… etc…

Yeah, what good were those Austrian knights anyway? :wink:

guess you got something wrong about the blue colour :wink: The steel turns blue at 290°C, simply put it in the oven and you 'll see. What those guys above used seems to be a so called cold-browning. Heat blueing has a different shine.

little tip, you CAN break your neck when falling from horse even with an armet.

And the Avant armor originally had an armet. The armet is still in the Churburg, the guy who bought it in the '70s simply insisted that he gets the barbute. Maybe he didn 't like armets…

a dat brigandine! Please guys, stop believing brigandines are some thing beneath a plate cuirass that they are cheaper and offer less protection. This is absolute rubbish! Making a brigandine takes far more time than forging a single piece breastplate. There is a good reason why all the folks walked around with breastplates and the high quality brigandines were worn by nobility. (Note: I 'm talking about 1470, where the brigandine was fully developed, very small plates etc. etc.)

At 1403 breastplates were quite common. I 'm convinced they were the bigger part of torso protection. Moving away from the coat of plates towards armor which doesn’t need a fabric cover to work. Btw. tassets at 1403 would be VERY rare, mostly you find skirts on illustrations. Be it lamellar or plate rows overlapping each other, just like back and front on late gothic armor, but mounted to a textil cover. Wait i got a picture :wink:

It 's dated to 1380, but can still be found at later date.
[Munich Breastplate][1]

and this one is from the Churburg dated to 1410,

Slightly later, what also can be found in KCD is this piece. Look at the similarity, the armorer just added 3 strips, that 's it. :smile:


[1]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomas-b/sets/72157629656588156/

do you have some sources you state your price calculation on?

Polishing could cost up to 80% of the cost: Building Medieval Plate Armor: An Operator’s Guide by Dr. Tobias Capwell

Knightly Milanese armor cost about 8 pounds in 1441: English Weapons & Warfare, 449-1660, A. V. B. Norman and Don Pottinger, Barnes & Noble, 1992 (orig. 1966) page 112