Horseback riding style

Hi loksley, thank you for the illustrations and your comments about balance and steering the horse. They definitely helped.

About authenticity: I think chabuhi has a point, the outstretched legs might seem unfamiliar to many players at first sight. But if the animations are well done I guess that won’t last very long. After all, you probably wouldn’t perceive a real knight as fake because mostly if you watch someone who knows what he is doing that becomes more or less obvious after a while. So I would expect people to get used to “old-fashioned” riding styles quickly if they are well done. Having said that, I think implementing different riding styles would be nice but I guess there are more fundamental things to implement right know. Maybe if the developers end up bored before the release date :wink:

1 Like

Hi Dushin,
I think maybe we both constantly misunderstood what the other want to say.
All I am talking about is that this guy on this picture has no outstretched leg. And that he do not look like those riders on historic pictures.

http://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/_optimized/31d/90c/3669c06e4e_690x388.jpg

Do you have new information that they do already look like the historic riders (with long leg “a la brida”) in the game ???

No no, I was merely saying I would not object to the riders riding with stretched leg like in those historic depictions. Someone above me mentioned it might be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic for some people but I don’t think more than five guys outside of this thread would even notice it.

I do have a question though, In this article they state that riding a la gineta allows easier use of lower aids.

Could you tell me what the advantage of each type is? And what style would be most comfortable for daily riding.

1 Like

Hi Dushin, now I understand!
I will answer you questions tomorrow, if you don’t mind. Its already late and it will take some time to put those “art of riding” stuff to some short words.
.

For those who are interested, a “good-night” movie:
This is a video clip about riding in its highest form in my opinion,.
Most people here are wondering why cavalry and knights were ever so dangerous and why a well trained horse was worth a fortune. Most people think knights are simply rode just fast forward. With a few foot soldiers with long pole-arms, they would have been able to stop easily.
Please do not view this clip, if you’re opponent of bull fighting, and you can not stand these pictures. Animal cruelty and blood warning! In Portuguese bull fight the bull is not killed, but it’s not nice anyway. I am no friend of that, but that art of riding is the greatest thing I’ve ever seen. There are very few riders and horses in the world who can do that!

bullfighting as last form of war-riding?

Sorry guys, can’t read the whole topic as there is too many posts :D, I used to train for horse riding and knight/medieval fights on horses when i was 16 to 18, the style of riding the horse always depended a lot on the action it was used for.

Bow shooting:
Really short stirrups so the archer could stand up to compensate the horse movement and aim precisely, but honnestly this is not much of an knight situation, just an horse archer.

Sword fighting:
Bit shorter stirrups as you need to lift yourself in the saddle to swing the sword comfortably around yourself, usually in 2/3 of the lenght

Jousting and lance fighting on horseback (tournament fights or cavalry attack)
As knights in this case were usually fill plate armoured, the stirrups were on almost full leg lenght, kdight usually stand up a bit before hitting the target and bent fo the front having the legs fully pushing against the stirrups to have as much stablity as possible. Can imagine that the same lenght was also used when traveling as it is quite comfortable when horse is walking to just sit in the saddle as on a couch an wander the world…

So just piece of personal experience, but honnestly I don;t think this is that important for the game as most of players would not even notice and try to run horses as fast as possible to their target mission or so…

Hi Ogi:

You are right, most player would not care if the stirups are long or short, or if the rider sits on his horse like on a chair or not. But in my humble opinion: If the most will not care, why not do the historical thing for the few who cares? :wink:
The greater benefit from that would be, that they could say “the game is historical correct as far as we could do that” with no remorse :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

P.S. I really would like to see that stamina-thing for horses, too!

1 Like

Hi Dushin, Here as I promised:

To ride is more than simply “breaking the horse”. Good riding is constant comunication with the horse.
There are three classical “aids” to comunicate:
“Aids” with the reins, “aids” with weight / balance and “aids” with the legs.
“Lower-aids” are the aids with the leg And the “upper aids” normally the aids with the thorso and hips. Some people talks about “lower-and upper ‘leg-aids’”, too.
Very important for riding is the hip. you can communicate with it very finely. If it is tense, or is too skewed, then the whole body can not go with the movement. The center of gravity of the body is also about in this area, so it is important for balance, too.

Many “riding masters” (especially the newer ones) say, that-you will “block” your hip and makes the legs stiff if stretching out your long leg and leaning backwards. This is partly true, but there is another way if one pays attention to the position of the hip.
This could be meant when Dom Duarte says, “a la brida” would block your lower aids.

But the more likely explanation is:
The leg is also extremely important for the communication with the horse. For example, you can steer the horse very fine sideways to the left when lightly pressing with the right-leg to the right side of the horse. Ideally at the right moment when the horse just raises his right hind foot. Also the position of the riders leg is important … more to the front, more to the back … and, last but not least, you have your spurs!

If Dom Duarte says that the rider with an outstretched leg “a la brida” has problems with the lower-aids, then it probably means that the riders must move the leg back to use the “lower-aids”.

An other form of “a la brida” is yust really standing moreorless vertical in the stirrups, but with the leg in the right position for the “lower aids” but can not use them fast enough, because you have all your weight at the legs and stirrups!

But you can compensate all that “lower aids” if you e.g. use stronger the rotation of the hip and ride with the thighs, or the “weight / balance-aids”.

Riding “a la brida” was in mid-northern Europe until the beginning of the 20th century (in an attenuated form) in use.
The long leg is more balanced than the short leg, if you can not only ride for the “art of riding”.

In “a la gineta” one has the leg always in the right position to give the “lower-aids” fast and correct. The leg and the stirrups are exactly under your bodies center of gravity. You have your legs “free” to move them. And you can easily stand up a little bit in a fast and timed way, to “sit lightly” the boincing at trotting.
(In medieval times trotting what not very popular)

So I would say, “a la gineta” is the better choice for riding in the modern way. As a sport for example.

If you want to ride comfortably, then you can make the stirrup longer, and if you need stability, then you can also press into the stirrup. and make a longer leg like “a la brida”.

P.S. For some old riding-masters, riding with a long leg was like those guys in modern days who rides a bicycle witht their hands in their pockets…
“Look everybody! I am so good, I even don’t need my hands” :wink:

1 Like

Thanks for the explanation, would riding with long legs give you a good point from which to attack with a sword? Mostly thrust attacks.

Well every fool can ride a bike without hands but I assume it becomes a little harder to ride a horse without reins, that would be somthing :smile:

1 Like

Maybe a fool, but not me! :wink:
I could ride my horse without hands, but only a little bit until it realized that… then the horse was getting naughty. :wink:
The much more important thing is riding your horse with only one hand, because you need the other hand for fighting.
Every fool can put both reins in one hand and ride straight forward, but building up the essential body-tension in the horse with one hand to ride like the guy in the bullfighting-movie is very advanced riding.
If you look at those movie, then you can see him riding “a la gineta”, but with a very long leg, sometimes even getting into “a la brida”. He can lean over and touch the bulls head while riding! He can ride fast attacks, fast retreats, tight turns… if he would wield a sword, he would be a nightmare for every foot-soldier.

1 Like

That’s why foot soldiers brought billhooks and pikes and stood in formation.

Yes exactly!
But… every stupid peasant can hold up a sharp stick, and its easy to put 500 arrows in the air per minute… I think there must be something special on them why knights and cavalry has played such a big role in historic warfare. Something which is usually underestimated by modern people.

The force of around 700 kilograms of horse + armored person moving at you at 40-42 kilometers an hour concentrated in the tip of a four to five meter long steel tipped lance. And it isn’t just one guy but around 200 of them riding knee to knee 2 ranks deep.

Of course you are quite dependent on good terrain since no amount or training or spurring will enable you to cross rocky or wooded uneven terrain in a good charge let alone in a formation.

2 Likes

Have they said anything about horse armour by the way? I know this was used in those times, maybe not by everyone but it seems something fun to include. Maybe make different kinds of armor or even saddles, paint them, add a flag/emblem and more of those things.

Found a picture of some medieval horse armour to give you an example:

We discussed this a little but we can’t give solid answers since we aren’t insiders.

Hi,
this is what I said about that with a link to many pictures:
Horsearmour
Look at the pictures and form an opinion yourselves.

My state of knowlede: there has been horsearmour, but not as often as you might think. In the last 20years I’ve looked at thousands of pictures. I think it was very special. Fighting in full armor but with a “naked” horse must have worked very well.

Horsearmour was bitmore late medieval time, not sure how much at this time period, the other thing is also an price problem, usually an full plate armour for knight at that time was worth of fortune, taking this in mind how usltra expensive was horse armour?! This means only the really high level of nobility was able to use and own such equipment, probably such level is not even in the game, especially if it comes to player, so player may meet or see such stuff with some NPC characters but not own it…

I think it was a matter of weight and manoeuvrability, too.

I survived the first weekend of the Schaffhausen Tournament (not on horse, but it was exhausting enough) and would like to share a first video-clip as a demonstration of horse (and fighter) movement:
http://www.swr.de/landesschau-bw/tipp/tipp-die-grossen-ritterspiele-zu-schaffhausen/-/id=2248740/did=13758498/nid=2248740/1p7cw5p/index.html

For non-German speakers: “Blablabla… Its all as authentic as possible … blablabla… real weapons, no fake, no story-skript… blablabla”

2 Likes

No wholesale horse slaughter? I believe the Spanish considered killing the horse a perfectly viable tactic.

In Germany, killing (even hitting) the horse in a tournament was highly prohibited. In this modern time, killing the horse of one of the “knights” would surely results in the killing of the killer, 'cause the horses are so cumbersome well trained and precious to them :wink: