Playable female characters

Not to be combatative, but you can’t really call 40% to 45% of the playerbase a ‘very small playerbase’. There are plenty of girls that play games and who are very serious about them, so please don’t base your comments on “no girls on the internet = no female players or if they are they’re just doing it for attention” myth! v

Several of my female friends are hardcore RPG gamers too, and just because female players aren’t as vocal in forums doesn’t mean we don’t exist! So please don’t sweep so many potential players and especially financial backers under the carpet with common misconceptions: we enjoy gaming and giving our two cents’ on a game’s growth just as much as anyone else :>

I think female players have every right to make constructive criticism and give their opinions or suggestions on a game’s development (especially if the Devs are looking for fan feedback to make KC: D the best it can be) so opinions regarding whether or not there should be a female protag option are perfeclty valid.

However, taking into account the realistic nature of the game and the historical accuracy Warhorse is aiming for, I don’t think having a female protag is the best option. As much as I’d like the choice, I’d rather not sacrifice game quality and accuracy to please my personal desires (beleive me when I say I am 100% all for historical accuracy because seeing anachronism in historical media makes my soul bleed). But I really hope Warhorse reaches the financial goal to give us that sidequest featuring a female protag though! :slight_smile:

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It seems there are quite a few of us females already here and it doesn’t appear that there is a huge outcry about the storyline being male based. I don’t feel ignored just because the story is a man’s. We’re used to it and I don’t think it’s as big of an issue as some think. The women who are going to be interested in this game are going to play it regardless of who the lead character is.

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These statistics don’t seem realistic and they arent very reliable
"89% of all parents are around during game purchases"
Those include mobile gaming and social media games.
Everyone has a smartphone these days, making most of the statistics completely and utterly redundant to any relevant videogame market, especially considering the casual market is extremely unstable (just look at how rapidly a lot of Facebook game companies declined).
It counts facebook games and angry birds as games.
Sure, they are games. But playing Angry birds doesn’t make you a gamer.

video games according to these surveys
Gone Home
Angry Birds
EA’s new Dungeon Keeper
that promo flash game for toothpaste
that patronising edutainment shit someone installed on the classroom ipads
random apps according to some listings on google play
any number of game that scored 0/10 on metacritic

when you say they’re hardcore rpgers what rpgs are you talking about?

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I don’t particularly want to reply with something long winded because I don’t want to derail the topic any more that it currently has so I’ll keep this brief and I have a feeling this will get out of hand pretty soon:

A game is still a game whether it’s CoD, any generic RPG (whether it’s a huge one like Skyrim or a mini RPG) on a smartphone or platformer or kids games or whatever. The surveys by ERSB and THEESA don’t seem to state whether they included smartphone games in their survey or not, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that they were included at all. Many other different surveys on gamer demographics show similar results wherever you look so the numbers can’t be as skewed as you seem to make out.

Nevertheless, a game is a game no matter how ‘hardcore’ it is or how shit the rating of the game. A person who plays and enjoys games is still a gamer, regardless of gender or age. I don’t understand the elitist attitude some people have regarding what platform someone else is playing or what genre it is and you can’t be a gamer if you don’t play the ‘right’ kind of game or if you don’t fit into the stereotypical ‘teen-to-twenty-something-nerd’ age bracket.

I’m not sure how it’s relevant what RPGs or my friends play but personally I play only really play Skyrim nowadays (I don’t have much time for hardcore gaming anymore because University takes up most of my free time but I was really into it a while back) and I think my friends play Witcher, AC series (not an RPG but still) and probably others (they’re in the same situation though, no time anymore to play because of Uni and jobs take up their time etc)

TL;DR: A large number of girls play games and enjoy them. Please stop pretending that we don’t exist or that we’re such a tiny minority our opinions don’t matter! Female players have financially backed this project, we want to see this game do well and we have a right to suggest or give opinions on the games’ development, we’d like to see more female protags, but we also understand that given the nature of the project is it’s not possible and we understand and most of us accept this. End of.

I’m sorry to OP for derailing the conversation even further! :<

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The surveys by ERSB and THEESA don’t seem to state whether they included smartphone games in their survey or not, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that they were included at all.

The surveys that the ESRB in particular conduct are very broad spectrum, they tend to survey almost anything with internet connection.

the people who predominantly play casual and/or mobile games should not be considered as the primary audience for a game like this, it is by it’s nature a more niche product and while there is a place in the market for angry birds and its ilk this is not that place

That is true, in the same way that a person that plays “go fish” is a card player or that a person who paints by numbers is an artist
While everyone can be a gamer not every game necessarily should try and appeal to everyone. in the same way that summer blockbusters are tailored towards a different audience than oscar season dramas this does not need to appeal to the casual crowd without running the risk of diluting the quality of the final product

I’m not sure where the elitist factor comes in against consoles unless you think cellphones are gaming consoles or something. Though if that’s the case I own most consoles but I would consider all of them pale imitations of the PC, a PC has better graphics more customization, better utility options ect the list goes on, but i would certainly not consider the iphone a gaming device or even put it on par with my oldest consoles.

As “gamers” we should be biased against less “hardcore” titles because inevitably they clog the market with games that have no gameplay depth, no cohesive story, and no actual gameplay or meaningful decisions. take a look at the games that have been released in the past 3 years for the most part they’ve been getting progressively worse and worse. I mean Look at Skyrim, and compare it to oblivion or morrowind, the game is only made half decent through extensive modding and actively ignoring the quests and game play, it’s about half the length if even that of the previous title Oblivion, and I could go on and on about the story, and the mechanics.

I didn’t say they don’t matter, I just pointed out that it doesn’t make sense to pander to a minority and that those statistics are acquired through various sources such as facebook “gamers*” and cellphone “gamers*”

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Well, I guess you should stop pretending that 40% of playerbase of RPGs or this game are girls. And I dont mean it as an offence, it’s just insane, though it would be cool. Surely gamer is a gamer no matter which games he or she plays, but you can’t deny there is a big difference in preference of game genres between genders in general. However, it doesn’t change the fact you or any female certainly have a right to suggest whatever you want and demand for female character is completely understandable, yet for obvious reasons impossible to fulfil.

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I should have clarified that a bit, I meant ~40% of gamers are girls in general, not that 40% of KC: D’s backers/players or RPG players in general are female (I agree if that were the case it’d be crazy awesome but unfortunately we’re still a minority in this genre and I’d be pretty dumb to suggest otherwise) D: It’s 5am where I am and I’m pretty sleep deprived so some of the stuff I’ve written tonight hasn’t been hugely thought through blah

And @Duke_of_Juke I agree the latest games on the market have been lacklustre and most are released broken with bugs or are just inane. I also agree that the genre KC: D fills is pretty niche and pandering to a small minority of players wouldn’t be feasable, but I wanted to make it clear that female players should be able to express their concerns regarding what they play as well, and not have their comments brushed aside as is so often the case in the gaming community. I should have made that clear in my earlier reply.

We (females) may be a minority player in most genres but think more of us play RPGs or MMOs than any other genre (sorry, no, I don’t have statistics, it’s just my feel after many years of gaming). I’m probably one of the oldest here and a mother of four so I can safely say another aspect people are missing is that typically we are the ones who purchase the games for our kids (at least in my experience).

As I said earlier in this post, I’m not a feminist and know what I’m getting into when I buy into a game. If it’s male story based, as most are, no big deal, so be it. But it’s nice to be able to choose sometimes or at least voice a dissenting opinion :slight_smile:

Hope everybody has a great weekend!

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Have to agree here from my MMO days raiding we had a good percentage of are members officer ranked etc who were females, and by far they where the better players in the guild compared to the male section, i find that the internet has the idea that women don’t exist.

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At least until we started talking, or as forums go, typing, lol!

Honestly, the idea that a blacksmith can go out and become a great and powerful knight is a bit out there as well, since knights in general were landed members of the nobility. While the historical accuracy is a draw in this game, it is still a fictional representation. So why not include a female character? True, it was rare for the time period, but there are still examples of great women who fought, examples that have already been given in previous posts.

Not to mention, since the playable female character is appearing outside of the main game quest, then those who are against the idea of playing something so “historically inaccurate” can simply choose not to play it.

History is written by the victors as we all know, and men of the time had a fair interest in maintaining dominance over females. As a result, there are of course many more stories of great men than of great women.

There is no reason that Warhorse can’t both tell the story of an unlikely blacksmith affecting the politics and battles of medieval Europe as well as the unlikely tale of a woman doing the same.

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The problem is then your assuming the woman has blacksmithing skills ? which id doubt at that time

Was this in reply to my post? If so, then no. I was pointing out that it was rare for either a blacksmith or a woman to have that level of influence at the time.

Yes sorry i didn’t tag it to you, i do wonder how the female character will play out though ingame at the start.

Also i dont even expect the guy to reach the rank of Knight without some amazing stuff happening even then it would be hard as hell, but i do assume the blacksmith isn’t a serf but a peasant meaning he atleast has a higher status and also the status of a craftsman which was a high status for common folk at that time i believe.

As I understand it, we will play the male character in most of the game, but the female character during the rest of it.

Good job ignoring everything that has been said.

I find your arguments kinda absurd, but I will try and respond to them without being patronising. They did certainly say the blacksmith will play a major role. From the Kickstarter page: “Avenging the dead, safeguarding the kingdom’s rightful ruler, and restoring order will prove no small feat for our adventurer.” They also insinuate quite heavily that you are going to sway nobles to support one heir or the other.

It does not speak for itself that there were very few who studied women in the middle ages until the 70s, it only speaks about the chauvinism and ethnocentrism of 19th century researchers, which was when history and archaeology in their current form had their origin.

They wrote about history from their world view, which was way more chauvinistic than both the 18th century which was probably as liberal a time as history got, and I dare say more chauvinistic than the Middle Ages. It would be less of a stretch for people of the Middle Ages to take a woman seriously than it would be for a 19th century man, or even many modern men (and women, sadly), as we still cling to many of the ideas that had their apex back with the Victorians, about culture and gender. But even then there were notable exceptions: Archaeologists of the time found daggers in the graves of women, and in their world, women would never fight, so they instead attributed this to all kinds of alternate explanations. It was Johanna Mestorf, an immensely respespected archaeologist at the time (despite being female, her story is very interesting, but I won’t retell it now. Look it up! ), who suggested that maybe they did actually occasionally use it to fight.

And “these rare examples of exceptional women in history” does prove it was more than “almost impossible”, my examples were but a few. The article itself speaks of at least one other by name in that same rebellion. I give you also the earlier example of Gwenllian Ferch Gruffydd, respected general and co-leader in Wales around 1100, who’s name became a battle cry for the welsh for decades if not centuries after her death. Yet another example is from the Eastern Roman Empire, from around 1000 AD after a battle during a war against Rus, if memory serves me right, where they were horrified after they found numerous women among the fallen enemy soldiers. And even if we play with the thought that you were right, and it was almost impossible; a game tells one story. One example from history is enough to make a game realistic. But there isn’t one, there are dozens, but they are not as well known as their (admittedly still more numerous) male counterparts, probably because of the male dominance in writing and distributing. Do not mistake popular history for the full extent of actual history.

And no, they would not be mocked “so hard”, and I find it unsettling that you think they would. I would applaud them, as I’m sure many others would have done. I would welcome a break from seeing history represented in media as told by rich, white men. The academic fields of history and archaeology has moved forward a lot the last hundred years, with new, better, more varied sources and a better understanding of how our own culture influences everything we do, write and read. The public idea of history, on the other hand. has obviously not.

That a woman would have to be ridiculed and “treated like a freak” by everyone for being exceptional is based on nothing more than your imagination. Several of my examples show otherwise, and going back to the article about the Peasant Rebellion; if people would only ridicule a woman for being a skilled leader and exceptional character, would a woman really be able to gather a peasant uprising large enough to storm London and behead the Lord Chancellor? No. And that goes for all the other examples as well. Yes, women were at large seen as lower beings than men, but that is especially true among the clergy and to a large extent among the nobility, according to Catholic doctrine, but not as true for the general peasantry, and even among the upper classes this varied widely from person to person. And a woman who proves exceptionally skilled is able to gain trust in any company, as proven by the rebellion’s at least two female leaders named by name, as well as the numerous women involved in clergy and noble politics through the ages simply due to them being exceptional at what they did.

And that leads us neatly to the next issue, the fact that you think them being called “heretics” and “rebellious evildoers” means that mirrored views of the full extent of the populace. The Cathar movement, who were heretics, yes, were a large enough movement to actually threaten the authority of the Catholic church in whole regions of Europe. That means that there were quite a lot of people who shared their views. May I remind you that Protestantism is a Catholic heresy as well. Thus it is faulty to say that the church view represents everyone’s view.

Same thing with the description “rebellious evildoers”. That account was written by the crown, of course they would describe them as evildoers. That was due to the fact that they were rebels, not that they were lead by a woman. That there was a large rebellion to start with should tell you that the general populace’ views doesn’t necessarily mesh with that of the upper class.

To conclude this tangent, before as today, people were not straw men who shared every whim and thought of the governing classes. You are grossly simplifying how we should interpret how the people of yore saw the world and using it to create a false dilemma. Sure, a female character would probably meet some extra resistance and would maybe have a harder time earning respect in certain societies, but this is in no way detrimental for a good story. As every writer knows, conflict and strife is the core of any good story. Actually, a peasant such as our blacksmith protagonist trying to move amongst the noble classes would also meet quite a lot of resistance, and I bet the game will acknowledge this, and it will probably make the story more interesting for it.

So some extra strife for a female character would not be sexist. The constant ridicule, mocking and total lack or respect you describe, however, probably would be sexist, especially as, as I have shown, it is anachronistic for the era.

I will not comment too much on the feasibility of making separate dialogue for the two character, as your conclusion is based on your previous arguments which I have already commented on. I propose that the story would not at all have to be dramatically altered to the point of creating two entirely separate stories. As I have shown, exceptional people can fit into any company, despite gender. But they are a small team, and I have some personal experience from the games industry and know how much work making a game actually is, which was why I left, so I leave that up to them. That being said, they would be doing the public perception of history a large favour by featuring a female character.

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I agree. I would love to see a playable female character as well.

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That was beautifully written!

Hello,

I agree to her writings and I’d really like to see this game happening with the possibility to play as a female character. A hardcore roleplaying game in this theme is quite rare and my husband and myself will play it next to each other and dive into the dark medieval age :smiley:
And I think that the team will get enough money to gather new ressources to make this game happen in a great way.

(sorry for mistakes, I am not a native English native speaker :blush:)

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