Poll: What should be our next stretch goal? What about 3rd person camera?

Pledge/Kickstarter
#434

nice,some excellent points in that review I think,like
"the world is much higher resolution,detailed and fuller in 1stP"
In a clip of Kindome come I’ve seen gorgeous details,sometimes simple things like a very realistic and pretty cool pool of mud…I’ve been wondering if 1stP wouldn’t do such gorgeous details more justice than 3rdP…

and as he says in this review about 1stP
"it makes the experience more intense"
at the part where he’s talking about escaping the cops and jumping over a fence
"it feels like its taking longer to get to/in the car,you feel more panicky,…"

That affirms my thoughts about it:1stP not only helps you to see through the eyes of the character,
it also helps you to identify with the character(you won’t lose interest in the character as easily i think)
,it allows you to create an emotional bond to the character,you can experience the thrill of the moment like you were the character yourself…

In contrast to that I think 3rdP has the strenght to position your character in a story/world
with the better situational awareness;it allows you to see how external factor affect your character over time

Its not a choice for consistency between caring 3rdP or being 1stP
Being 1stP allows the player to be more involved with the character,
As you then start to care more for the character,you are more concerned with his position in the story/world.
So I think both caring and being are as important and belong together

#435

This is individual. For me, there is no difference between 1st and 3rd view in this matter. Im the character no matter the view and I care for the character and his actions in both equaly.

1 Like
#436

Yes, but not everybody wants that. And it only works if the whole experience is catering to that. If not it’s just a kind of uncanny experience, and not immersive.

Yes, it is. It’s actually this basic choice which is the most important. The problem is that you have to leave your own view to be able to understand that. For most people it’s not a decison they make for themselves whether they care about a character or become a character or both. It’s an unconscious process based on their emotional state and the empathy they are capable of. Forcing the player to even switch between different states of being and caring can seriously break immersion for some and even worse.

#437

There wont be 3rd person view in buildings, minigames, archery… etc. Just at open spaces, melee combat an horse riding.
I think thats sure thing, not just possible solution.

3rd person view does not need HUD more then 1st person. That could stay for both IMHO.

About that immersion - 1st person already restrict your vision an surrounding awarness a lot so I think that 3rd peron view is more realistic in close combat. Yes, I would like that effect in helm but still, the 3rd person view could be an option.

That problem with sneaking - well thats problem, yes.
But the 3rd camera could be done in many ways - not all are really that usefull.
It is singleplayer anyway. I cant care kess if anybody wants to spoil his/her game by cheating.

About better experience - the first person camera is main and I believe it would be same whenever they implement third person camera as well or not.

#438

Yes,ofcourse you care about his actions in both equally in the games you have played
Because games have rarely used 1stP and 3rdP as tools to intensify how attached a player is to a character,
shifting the focus for the right content,while keeping the strenghts of both 1stP and 3rdP in mind.

maybe its something I’d prefer individually
As some people would say switching between 1stP and 3rdP can seriously break immersion…
And they can be right,if badly implemented.Perhaps that would be one of the risk of adding 3rdP
But with combined strenghts of both they can make an awesome game I believe

Rarely have games used the strenghts of 3rdP and 1stP to compose a game,which must also make it hard to understand.
whether they care about a character or not is an unconscious process based on their emotional state and the empathy they are capable of.
And because its an unconscious process 1stP and 3rdP can actually be used as a tool to grasp the player if applied right.

what if
any external influence would be displayed in 3rdP…when someone ties your character up and throws him in a basement for example,story with other npcs would be potential external influence,the choices you make sometimes bear an external influence
Anything that is the personal experience of the character is displayed in 1stP;
exploration,combat(with exception the large scale battles where the army is the external factor in winning/losing),
The personal experience of being tied up in a basement,…

#439

Disregarding the debate from a player’s standpoint (realism, sneaking, etc.), I think that it could potentially affect the development of the game.

I say this because of something Rockstar Studios said in the article posted by @snejdarek,

Putting players into the first-person, and to do it right, requires much more than simply repositioning the camera. Rockstar North has adapted GTA 5 extensively in order to create an independently satisfying and authentic first-person experience.

“You have to change pretty much everything,” reveals Nelson. “I mean, if you want to do it right. We have a very solid third-person animation system, but you don’t just put the camera down there and expect to see the guns, aim, and shoot. All those animations are new when you switch to first-person, because it all has to be animated to the camera, to make it feel like a proper first-person experience that I think people would expect. All the timings have to be re-evaluated.”

Now, granted we are all talking about the exact opposite conversion, however I imagine that it comes with its own set of challenges.

I’m well aware that @hellboy has assured us that they already use a third person camera to test the animations, but using a TPV camera for testing and viewing animations, and using one for actually playing the game are worlds apart.

Please take the above as it’s meant… not as fact but as my inference and speculations from the article and from the statement made by an already well-established and successful video game company.

EDIT: Changed “with a similar set of challenges” above to “with its own set of challenges” to more accurately reflect what I originally meant.

2 Likes
#440

Ok, but still… he did not only assure that they use a third person camera, but as far as I remember he talked about how first person camera is the hard one - so it would make sense then why Rockstar talked about “changing pretty much everything”.

And dont worry, Im rather curious about others opinion and also trying to test mine ind debate than trying to convict anyone… so facts, speculations, inference, hunch - I respect them all.

1 Like
#441

Oh for sure :wink: I’ve read several of your other posts, and if there’s one thing you don’t appear to be, it’s unjustifiably rude. :slight_smile:

I was just wanting to reply to your asking how it would affect 1st person in “any way”. I’m not sure I agree with @RGS that it would negatively affect the first person, but I do believe that it will affect it in some way.

I do honestly think that there are bound to be some moves or gestures or whatever that simply cannot work the same for both views. Meaning that, if this assumption is correct, they will have to do at least a few extra animations. Whether this means hours, days, or weeks is up for lots of debate, and I don’t really want to speculate on it. However, one has to admit that there is some measure of extra work, and the amount is likely significant enough as to not ignore.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and plainly say that I’m in the “Not even optional TPV” boat, and I do understand that to some it could seem selfish. But that’s not the intent. I’m simply very curious to see what @warhorse can do when not worrying about any other view. My very first instinct was to say, “Sure… I won’t use it but what the hey… more power to you.” But the more I thought about it, and about what I really wanted, the more I came to the conclusion that I really just want them to focus on one view.

If I were backing the greatest Indie version of Dragon Age, and the studio said they wanted to make a definitive Third Person adventure, chances are I’d likely be curious to see what they did there too, and were the debate to come up I’d say I’d be fairly likely to vote for them sticking to their original vision too. Not out of any sort of spite or idea of superiority, but simply out of creative appreciation.

#442

Are they still tweaking 1stP or if it is as good as done in Kingdom come?
would be a shame if they went for both 1stP and 3rdp and then discover 1stP still isn’t what they hoped for,that they have loads to change and finally end up with both mediocre cameras
3rdP would probably still require a lot of work too,despite they already use it for development…
…Only they can know what is feasible ofcourse…and if it was not they wouldn’t have suggested it probably

#443

fruitful discussion, but i think 400+ post means all points have been made and repeated numerous times already.

the fact that 3rd person is just an option and the poll is overwhelmingly pro-3rd person(counting those who play 1st, but don’t care if they make a 3rd person option), tells me this this pretty much a done deal.

3 Likes
#444

@213

Whilst I reckon they probably will do it (though I’d rather they didn’t), you could look at the results a different way:

381 either don’t want it at all (124 adamantly opposed) or have no desire to use it (257), against 173 for.

124 against isn’t an insignificant number compared to 175 for. Sure it’s a good margin lower, but it’s still a hefty proportion opposing the idea.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that KCD was pitched as being first person only during Kickstarter and the topic was heavily debated at the time with zero movement on the issue from the devs, who remained strongly opposed to TPV throughout. Not saying that this means that things can’t change, but those against have more reason to feel riled up about it than those for who knew the deal already (no TPV).

I won’t hate it if they add it, but I don’t believe at all that it’s virtually free to add and won’t have wide reaching implications for the rest of the game.

3 Likes
#445

I would play in First Person, but wouldn’t mind to have another option for others. But for me personally another, i would prefer another goal

1 Like
#446

The poll is just there to give Warhorse some input and feedback. We don’t really decide on the feature here. Good arguments are probably even more valuable than the poll result itself. So no, I don’t think that it is a done deal. On the opposite, I think we made it even harder for Warhorse to decide on that now.

2 Likes
#447

To be honest, I think interpreting it that way is a bit of a stretch, but that’s part of why someone wished for (and I tried to offer) a couple polls that were much more specific as just Yes/No for TPV at all, and then as a stretch goal. Nothing official, of course.

But, I think it’s more sensible to say there are 125 people who are against TPV (currently), 174 who want it, and another 315 who are fine with it but will play FPV, or just want the choice. Any way you look at it, the “NO!!!” crowd is in the minority overall. If that matters at all as far as Warhorse conducting a poll is concerned, the answer is clear and they will likely provide an optional TPV whether it’s part of a stretch goal or not.

1 Like
#448

For me it is the same. It will make a huge difference game-play wise to have 3D perspective available. But for immersion and uniqueness I would prefer everything first person.

Does not seem to be a lot of work to implement it. Maybe they can offer an option upon installation to use it or not. For the hardcore gamers. Or release a patch additional to the game to enable it. So people can decide to install the feature or not.

#449

Yeah, I agree it’s a bit of a stretch, but I don’t think that the ‘No’ camp is an insignificant minority either.

The 257 who voted that they were fine with it also voted that they’d still be playing first person regardless. So for 381 people it’s effectively a wasted feature. If the poll was phrased “If we add TPV will you use it?” those voting ‘Yes’ would be in the distinct minority (but of course would still represent a good percentage, if indeed TPV could be implemented without negatively affecting other elements of the game, it would seem to make sense to add it).

It’s a tough one for Warhorse to call - As Dan said, some people are going to be pissed off either way. I agree with Lord Crash that the results of the poll should just be considered as ‘useful info’ to them, along with some of the points raised by both camps in this thread. It’s their game at the end of the day and they’re best placed to judge the best course of action (and full ramifications for each option).

3 Likes
#450

No way @Hellboy,
3rd person is a game breaking perspective IMHO, at least when you keep in mind Deliverance’s scope and maturity. Even you alone stated it many times in the past. Maybe there are new people who would ride the hype train surrounding 3rd person camera (especially casual console gamers and younger fellows), but most of us hardcore gamers who have ALREADY backed the game as early as it was announced on Kickstarter would not like this at all…

Better spend that improved budget on something far more important, like improving the game builds or implementing features which @warhorse stated to abandon due to the lack of resources rather than losing those funds in adding no needed 3rd person. That’s my opinion and I would NEVER play nor even try 3rd person, but it is your call after all. Just hoping other aspects of the game won’t be neglected or delayed because of this nonsense.

2 Likes
#451

@RGS you are absolutely right!

#452

do what you think is best and fits to your vision warhorse!
listen to your :heart:

you dont have to explain yourselves

thats all I have to say

4 Likes
#453

Last minute info!!!
Considering pre-kickstarter campaign and the current state of affairs, I have to share something with the community:

On their next $3 000 000 stretch goal, there would be DRAGONS implemented into the game! :smile:

Enjoy and be happy!

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