Realism, How far should it be taken

Story & Setting
#1

Replying to a topic from Homosexuality In The Game/Time Period:

Below a poster talks about not wanting certain aspects of a game that are realistic, the reasons why are left to the imagination at the moment. Now the comments below do reflect many comments that I’ve seen in these forums in regards to topics such as nudity, building, social/writing skills, sexuality, other races and religions, and more.

So some of their key realistic elements that are unacceptable are rape, cancer, disease, illness, bestiality, going to the toilet, having sex, scrubbing the windows, torture, homosexuality.

Now all of these things can be added to a game in a tasteful way. I can think of these elements in several games. The obvious being disease/cancer and illness (Wii’s Trauma Center: Second Opinion, PS2 Breath of Fire - Dragon Quarter, PS2’s Persona 3 and 4) Rape (CSI Criminal Intent, Law and Order Legacies) consuming food/bodily pluming (Digimon, Sleeping Dogs) Having Sex (many games, including family friendly The Sims) Homosexuality (Mass Effect 3, The Sims)

All of these games are done tastefully, all of these topics can be done tastefully. All can add to the entertainment value/immersiveness of the game. Now when we discuss realism we should think of it as “the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life.” think about your own real lives.

Maybe you see someone jerking off in your back yard or someone having sex with a goat across the street and say “hey bob what’s up?” however more often than not you never see Bob though you’ve likely heard about Bob.

In this time period it might be more likely to see Bob, though the higher the persecution of something in an area the less likely you are to see it openly (meaning you’d have to try to find it or accidentally stumble upon it by being somewhere you aren’t expected to be). However with these more tabooed things you will likely hear more “Rumors” about them.

The same thing goes with the game how often do you see people being raped? If you did would you stand by and do nothing? I would likely kill the rapist. However I’ve never seen someone else being raped, though you’d think with the large number of rapes in the world you would see someone being raped at some point. Likely you’d have to be investigating someone. Or be the target of someone.

With this topic you may think “why would someone want that in a game” for the same reason Law and Order SVU was the most popular series in the franchise. It’s good verses evil, it’s mystery, it’s the thrill of the hunt, it’s sympathy, it’s empathy. It’s a mix of desires that give us a sense of enjoyment/satisfaction.

So with these things in mind where do we draw the line? Is it about drawing a line? Obviously we know a line has been crossed when no one wants to buy your game that marks an agreement among humans that it’s something we don’t want to see (manhunt is a good example).

I look forward to hearing from you my wonderful comrades.

2 Likes
Getting married, seducing, some romantic content
Gritty realism?
#2

I still say you are trying to put your own personal views into this game a little too much. Yes many of those aspects could be done tastefuly but it’s not a question of taste it IS a question of realism, it’s menat to be a realistic medieval RPG, there for open homosexuality in game is not feasable.

Sure have it in any other games that not are realistic historical medieval RPG’s. I am not fussed if the next Mass Effect has a full on GLBT pride day I have no beef with people or their sexuality.

Rape, rape is a tricky subject, unless there where witnesses that where willing to come forward and say that a woman was raped it was her word against the attackers.

Lets not forget that in this time period women by their nature where seen as liars, deviouse, flawed and lesser creatures, many wone accepted this as fact. Not all mind you but the vast majority did.

This was all due to societys religiouse views, Eve actions in the garden of Eden tainted women as the same.

That is if they could even find the atatckers; for example if she had been raped on the road etc. there is not much chance her attackers would be found.

If they where a Lord or her better sadly they where rarely held accountable for such actions.

If they did find her attackers, the woman would still not get justice if she was preganat, as it was widly belived at the time that for a woman to conceive she must have and orgasm, thus if she had had an orgams she had enjoyed the sex and there for because she enjoyed it there was no act rape.

So in my mind rape would also be too much of a tricky issue to put in game’ too many variable to consider etc. Disease I personaly can’t see a problem with…confused as to how beastiality could even be considerd as it was a social and religiouse no no?!

3 Likes
#3

Another thing that people tend to forget is that putting something into a piece of work is also a kind of statement. It definitely goes to forms of art like literature, film and virtual games as well…

The issue about homosexuality being appropriate to be included in the game is really in its basis the same like with the main player character being female. If the game aims primarily for going within the period-accurate social standards and at the same time provides a completely equal option to make your character both male or female knight to fight a heroic fight for the king and the country, it’s like it’s sending a message: With the presence of these options we indicate that a thing like that was a pretty normal stuff happening out in the open regularly at that time and place. And you as a generic character from this period can therefore equally choose from all of this. Because that’s how it was. The same thing goes with the homosexuality.

These things are completely ok to implement into games that take place today, when the general society itself (at least in the more humanity-oriented parts of the world) doesn’t really have much of a problem with this (excuding very individual opinions that will always differ), or in a fictional universe like Dragon Age, or Mass Effect, where all stuff is happening simply in the way its creator decides. So it’s perfectly ok to assume that in DA and ME universe it’s no real deal if a sexy warrior-princess saves the whole country every couple of decades or who or what you publicly decide to live and sleep with.
This way, games like DA and ME can easily, without much real harm (or questionability), openly adress still-a-bit-sticky stuff that is being sorted out in the real world these days and help to promote the discussion on it (and the way this is being accepted).
All fine, no problem.

But when you come up with the idea to make a story this way from a real (and very specific) historical period, where issues like these were as far from being “appropriate”, “normal” and “everyday” as they could, you simply have a problem.
Twice as much, if you also claim that you want to create an authentic feel of the period.
You’ve got to make a decision, either you want to make a personal statement againts the way the rules are (or were), or to follow them. Getting DragonAge-ish on the main character is something way different than getting medieval. On his whatever. :slight_smile:

Either way, the decision is really in the hands of Dan Vávra and his closest developing circle and the way they keep dismissing vast majority of wild suggestions from the fans shows clearly that their vision, in the issue of “depiction”, is pretty conservative. And for myself, I rather like this sort of conservativity.
Including a fashionable big social question of today just for the sake of having it there can work with games like DA or ME, which could do just as easily with it as without it.
But the more context-heavy is the stuff that you are working on, the more context-heavy the stuff you implement has to be (even more if it’s a very sticky matter).

It’s not like any of those things can’t possibly be present in the game. The question of the amount of player char’s involvement is what really matters.
Saving a young girl from getting raped doesn’t sound like something that would be out of place (how many times did we see stuff like that in the movies?). Finishing the job shortly after that yourself already kinda does (eh… how many times did we see that in the movies as well?).
Homosexuality… well, at least in the monasteries you could possibly come across some guy(s) of this type, if you kept sticking your nose around enough. The Church and monasteries/convents were always a sought-after shelter for people who didn’t fit into the general social-sexuality-standard (promoted by the Church :slight_smile: ), hoping to pray it out, or to maybe find a like-minded soul…
But then again… how far should it be taken with the main character? Really…

9 Likes
#4

Well put! I almost completely agree. Though it wasn’t entirely on topic (as this topic is about realism and how far it should be taken, which you did touch on) mostly the part about character creation, but I do see where you’re coming from. I agree it seems the developers have vision and are incredibly careful about bringing on any new ideas. I personally enjoy the multiple dialogues I’ve seen on this forum regarding controversial topics. If it helps to give the devs ideas that’s a plus. I find open discussion and debate is the best way for people to learn and understand each other bringing the world together as one big happy human family ^_^!

#5

Good point. I agree…

With so many avid forum posts about homosexuality, it’s difficult not to perceive an attempted coercion into focusing development on what should be non issues. LGBT alternative lifestyles, bestiality, rape, bondage, sexual deviancy, taking a dump, and other similar activities are not part of the original dream that WarHorse pitched in the Kickstarter campaign. I am excited about the original Deliverance concept. Community Mod packs can address other appetites.

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#6

I think too many people just want to see tits while they play this game. IF they add sexual activities in game, then yes they should probably add homosexual intercourse as well, but if there is no sex, then still, if there is an option to have a relation, yes, but keep in mind it would be less likely to find a partner.

Now with rape, this, while I wouldn’t care if it was in, is past a standard line. With this function alone the game would be illegal in many countries. But with other players who have experienced rape, they would not want to see this, while I do not care, I do care about others having a good experience with this game when it comes out.

But in the end, if you want to see tits, just go watch a porn.

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#7

I feel like part of the problem people are having with the concept of this game…is that people are still trying to equate the main character to themselves (or a character they created), even though we’ve already been told that its a set character: the young son of a local blacksmith (we probably won’t even get to customize him much.)

I think a lot of these “well I would do that so why can’t my character?” issues would clear up if people started thinking of this as a Choose Your Own Adventure Novel…and not as an Open World Sandbox Game.

As for the issue of situational realism including homosexuality… it should only be present if it fits into the narrative of the situation. It would feel out of place in medieval Bohemia if it was tossed in nonchalantly.

5 Likes
#8

I think part of the problem people have with not understanding this guy can be seen as themselves is because he has a background. We’re not watching a movie here and his background isn’t books deep with lore. The following is the lore for our player

“In the midst of this plunder and chaos, a son of a blacksmith will emerge as a hero. His home destroyed and his family murdered by the invading army, he must redeem his failure to protect those he loved and set things right again. Avenging the dead, safeguarding the kingdom’s rightful ruler, and restoring order will prove no small feat for our adventurer. But beware - this is not a fantasy fairytale, and you are not the chosen one! This will be a tough, dirty job that only a champion with enough wits and strength will survive.”

To state he can’t be this way or that way because of his background is completely and utterly foolish. If our hero did happen to be a homosexual male (which is still completely possible for the time period) I’m sure every who stated “He’s a set character you can’t decide who he is” would be quite upset when they can’t bang chicks or have relationships or have options to flirt with doods (I’m not saying those features should be in the game just making a point)

Also people either do not read the updates or forget the developers stated

“There are many questions about possibilities of your character customization. Our game is story-based and the hero is a specific character, whose background, personal history, etc. are already developed. You cannot change his gender, voice or face. However, you can change almost everything else – we have a very sophisticated equipment/clothing system, you can change hair styles (in-game, not before starting the game), there are no class limits on attributes.”

Obviously we can change his personality be cause depending on how you play will be dependent on the personality you project onto the character. Good, evil, humble, baddass whatever the case may be. So those of you who may think “oh well obvious his personality and traits are all developed in his background” that’s not going to be entirely true.

In his background he could have done many things that we don’t know “at this moment” about. To assume he’s been a good ol’ boy raised on a farm would be presumptuous. He might have been a bully who tortured chickens for fun.

#9

I’d like to hear the team’s opinion about realism of a blacksmith’s son’s emerging as a hero. Looks like the weakest link here. Most defenitely he could only end up like some sort of a power broker, who is always in shadow or people’s favorite. Not that “hero” everyone’s talking about, like Robin Hood.

Also btw https://thehande.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/braveheart-the-10-historical-inaccuracies-you-need-to-know-before-watching-the-movie/

#10

There’s nothing unrealistic about that. There have been people at lower stations of life that have made larger impacts than war heroes. Gandhi and mother Teresa for example. Gandhi was considered a second class citizen (because he was Indian) Mother Teresa was a nun, but both have made significan impact on a mass of people and are considered heros of sorts. A blacksmith being able to do someone impactful in a war effort that’s not too surprising. Look at Joan D’arc she was a major hero in France and she came from a poor background and was a women no less.

-edit actually when I think about it it’s normally lower classes of people. People who no one suspects, that end up being the heroes. It’s rare to hear of nobles, but they do exist. Richard the Lionheart, Genghis Khan (though he might have been poor I think he came from a family of leaders, I could be mistaken) so. Yup not a stretch at all.

#11

Almost everyone who ever made a name for himself in history was once a regular nobody out there in the crowd. What they did and how they did it usually made much more difference than where they came from. Not always, but very often.

#12

you make a topic about homosexuality every month with a slightly different title. can you just keep it to one topic that everyone can ignore? thanks.

4 Likes
#13

Eh…hm you might want to check the date on this topic…but I guess I shouldn’t expect that. For as always your comments lack intelligence and forethought.

  • Edit
    Also In this case you should have read the more recent post. To see what it is people are discussing.
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#14

The same could go just as well for all of your universally negativistic, all-opposing and hateful posts that usually don’t bring anything new to a discussion aside from that simplistic grumpycattish “NO!”… but that’s probably not gonna happen, right?
Answer not needed, a rhetorical question.

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#15

Obviously people rising makes the most popular story and you can’t really rise that much higher when you inherit an empire. But there is still lots of room for nobility, think about Caesar and Napoleon was noble before the Revolution too.

As for realism, nobody knows what exactly happened. All we have are the guidelines of laws and customs. How the individual people in the story behave isn’t set in stone. Sure somethings are more likely but in a lot of cases there are conflicts between a characters desires and interests and multiple sets of rules of what is appropriate. In between is a lot of room for the developers to portrait things however they want. But an important issue with people of the past is that they use different words. They don’t know the same terms that we do and the other way around. Due to this characters would think very differently. They’re not aware of there (feudal) system in the same way, they see there society from an entirely different angle than historians looking back. Common people in the period would have a very distant relationship to the idea of government because as oppose to us the weren’t raised to believe it’s supposed to represent the peoples opinion. On the other hand they might be aware of various religious movements and there (social) policies that just all seem stupid and meaningless to us because we look down on all the same.

4 Likes
#16

That was excellent to read. Really good insight soldier well done.

#17

If stuff such a nudity, sex, all this stuff that I don’t really want in the game is put in that’s ok with me. Ill just kinda shy away from it. Of course I’m positive ill run into it when someone else is in the room. A romance system would be nice. Gotta keep in mind that this is a different time as well. It was more “Rough” then today. In any event… I’m excited.

#18

Anyone seen the movie Irreversible? For the “immersion of the viewver” there is a 10 minute long rape scene.
Seriously. Do you really need to portray everything just because you can?
If this game was entirerly about beeing a medieval simulator I could agree that these topics could be interesting. BUT does it really has anything to do with the story beeing told? Does it add to the story?
In case of no, I’d say I can live without both rape, homosexuality, beastiality, wanking, cancer and busted kneecaps.

1 Like
#19

There’s probably a reason I’ve never heard of that movie. Like I stated if no one want’s to play your game (or in this case watch a movie) then obviously you’ve crossed a line. There have been movies that have shown women being raped (I think it happened in brave heart), but wasn’t done in an obviously offensive way. Made you hate the bastards and feel a little sick maybe, but most people still enjoyed the movie. In the same respect these sort of events are tools to enlighten a player or viewer of the world. Could it be done without it sure. Would it be better or worse? That’s debatable and really depends on how it’s done. As I stated before Law & Order SVU is all about rape. Is it shown? Maybe some rare instances for a split second (I can’t recall, which likely means no), but it was a huge part of the story and was one of their most popular series in the franchise.

#20

Irreversible is a great movie (from France), but it holds a 10 min long rape scene that kind of overdo the whole thing.

Rape can be a part in a game, but there’s really no need for visuals for that. A short cutscene showing someone getting knocked and then dragged into som place “private” could do, no need to show more than that.

But still, is there need for rape for example in the story?
I would like to think that the developers already have a plan in mind and if they see fit for rapes and beastiality in the game they will put it there, but if the story does not contain any of this, why bother?

Realism in it’s glory but it’s a game and a story beeing told, additional content like that feels like it strays from the path.

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