Suggestion about NPC behavior

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

Hello guys,
I have always disliked how typical RPGs deal with NPC reactions. Usually, their biases are polarized toward the player by some predetermined conditions - friendly, neutral or hostile.
In real life things are a lot more sophisticated. As Deliverance goes for realism and it is also early in development, maybe we can shake the NPC behavior a bid to make it more humane.

For example - in most RPGs, a hostile character attacks the player by default, with no good or logical reason to do so. Just because it is “bad”. It would be a lot better if the so called “hostile” NPC has an aggresive disposition, but doesn’t attack right away without being provoked.
Imagine the player goes to a bandit camp (no quest involved). Several bandits are there sitting around a camp fire or just relaxing. After seeing Henry, they stand up and surround him. In real life, if Henry doesn’t show aggresion, they probably won’t attack him right away. They will first ask him why he is there and what he wants from them, giving the player a chance to avoid the battle by dialog or by paying a bribe. Or if he is poor and those bandits are in good mood they could simply send him away without hurting him, because he poses no treat and doesn’t have anything to be robbed. All this despite that bandits are “hostile” by default.

With that I mean those NPC should have a stance/disposition as usual, but not so strict as in many other RPGs. Do you understand what I am trying to suggest. What do you say of the idea?

[ProkyBrambora]

Actually in the scenario you described they would probably kill a poor fellow anyway as to not reveal their position to autorities.

But anyway, it is good idea to have in the game, but I do not think that other RPGs have this much wrong, because in many of similar situations it would probably end up by fight. Only difference is that thre would be more talking in between .(except wild animals of course)
But to be fair, there should be some situations from wich you should be able to talk your way out (not just in main story).

So in conclusion I think that your main issue is immersion and feeling that NPC are not just there for you to kill. And even though in most cases of encounter of agressive NPCs (bandits) there would be fight there should be some dialogue or understandable reason why they are attacking you.

[snejdarek]

For example - in most RPGs, a hostile character attacks the player by default, with no good or logical reason to do so. Just because it is “bad”. It would be a lot better if the so called “hostile” NPC has an aggresive disposition, but doesn’t attack right away without being provoked.Imagine the player goes to a bandit camp (no quest involved). Several bandits are there sitting around a camp fire or just relaxing. After seeing Henry, they stand up and surround him. In real life, if Henry doesn’t show aggresion, they probably won’t attack him right away. They will first ask him why he is there and what he wants from them, giving the player a chance to avoid the battle by dialog or by paying a bribe. Or if he is poor and those bandits are in good mood they could simply send him away without hurting him, because he poses no treat and doesn’t have anything to be robbed. All this despite that bandits are “hostile” by default.

Try going to your country’s ghetto to a bunch of drug dealers having a BBQ behind their safe-house and please do tell me how they won’t attack you right away. Where the hell do you come from that you think that sociopaths don’t go full postal on you if you venture into their territory?

[bones]

It kind of reminds me of STALKER: CLEAR SKY when I helped Freedom a little bit and then went to Duty and helped them a lot then I became hostile to Freedom. They somehow new that I was an enemy halfway across map and I didn’t even have a Duty uniform on. Plus I had pro mask on (aka gas mask) so how would they even know?

I know everyone hates to pull examples from skyrim, but there are some people on there who attack you randomly. They automatically know who you are. Its annoying. You’d think it would take at least a couple of minutes to figure it out.

[SirWarriant]

Try going to your country’s ghetto to a bunch of drug dealers having a BBC behind their safe-house and please do tell me how they won’t attack you right away. Where the hell do you come from that you think that sociopaths don’t go full postal on you if you venture into their territory?

I think he was just using it as an example

[JonnyMc]

That sounds like an interesting quest

[213]

more nuances in npc behavior is always welcome. i generally dislike the robotic homing missile behavior of some ai, where they just come at you full on and try to kill you as soon as they see you. in real life, depending on situation, they will try and suss you out. this is true even in ghettos. they’ll try and understand the situation because it could be a trap. some might be amused, some might smell blood instantly, but whatever the case, they’ll maneuver first. so an ai behavior “setting” where the player is discovered, could involve more than just running into a fight, it could involve some circling, some creeping, etc getting close. then you’ll have to program if one npc is spotted, but the other isn’t alerted, etc.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

You are not sane…
I lived in a ghetto for many years as a kid and teenager, and here I am. Its how you blend and I know if you are not looking for trouble you could go along without it.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

This is exactly what I meant

[snejdarek]

Imagine the player goes to a bandit camp (no quest involved). Several bandits are there sitting around a camp fire or just relaxing. After seeing Henry, they stand up and surround him.

Try going to your country’s ghetto to a bunch of drug dealers having a BBQ behind their safe-house and please do tell me how they won’t attack you right away.

if you are not looking for trouble you could go along without it.

Your opening statement was about walking to the bandits’ camp where they are by the fire.

Now you are talking about not looking for trouble.

I think you should make up your mind.

[Blacksmith]

i generally dislike the robotic homing missile behavior of some ai, where they just come at you full on and try to kill you as soon as they see you. in real life, depending on situation, they will try and suss you out.

Another thing: If there is no foe radar (realistic!), what will you do if you see three people sitting around a fire? You have no information if they are friendly huntsman, bad bandits, evil solders, rich mechants ect.
Will you say hello, and hope the best? Sneak around and watch carefully(armor, weapons, guards)? Try to hear a dialog(“We killed that bloody bastartd”>>> wolf or maybe a traveller)?

And what will happen if they have a guard and he notice you? Will he try to knock you out? Will they think you are a bandit, spy, or something else?

Will you snipe innocent people out of the dark?
Is it a good idea to travel alone, or better with partners?
First they are “friedly” but in a while you are dead(slepping).
First you are friedly, but in night you kill them…

Decisions, decisions…

Real life is not so easy…

[ProkyBrambora]

In reality you are not put into these kind of situations without some context.

If you live in a village you know what you can encounter in your vinicity. So if seeing travelers around is common, you would probably did not have much fear go near them and talk to them. But the question is why would you do it?

And if you are a traveler yourself you should be prepared for these kind of things.
First thing is that you are probably traveling on horse, so sitting men around a fire are not really a threat to you as you can just stop there without getting off the horse and if they seem hostile you can just ran off.

Still even traveling by foot you do have to own some kind of protection.
This protection could be someone else, or shield and sword and even a piece of paper that could guaranteee you a safe passage. And anybody who would harm you would get a hefty price on their heads.

Additionally if you’d chance upon men sitting around the fire you would probably know what they are just by looking.
You can easily recognize farmer from soldier. And in the similar manner you can reckognize bandit from your lords vassals. Because they would bear some kind of crest, banner or a sign on a shield with them.
And if you would not reckognize them then just avoid them.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

You are just a troll IMO. You should make up your attitude and leave

[snejdarek]

So when someone catches you on your words that make no sense, you call them troll?

[Spooky]

I get what you’re saying, it’s definitely important for an npc to have a good reason for how they react to your character.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

Yes, in a matter of fact logical NPC behaviour makes the difference between “this game is awesome” immersion and “aah, it is just another scripted game” immersion.

[Spooky]

Yeah that’s a great point, i think it would be awesome to be travelling down a road and see people following me or watching me from a distance, instead of the typical sword flying into you from out of the blue. This also opens up multiple possibilities for ways to react to the situation, like quickly cutting corners to evade the enemy, instead of the inevitable battle of who’s got a bigger sword.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

It is great that here in the forum actually are some open-minded people who care about Deliverance, and not just some random trolls…

Your situation goes this way in my mind - Henry rides a horse on a lonely road. He sees some people on both sides of the path, they stop their walk and stare at him. Now Henry’s got to decide whether to stop his horse and talk or to speed up and go fast beside them.

In the first variant they could be just some farmers or hunters who can give side quest or an interesting (quite useful) information if the proper dialog is done. Or, they might be brigands and attack/don’t attack Henry depending on his looks, reputation, skills and equipment. Also, even if they prepare for attack, there should be some options (not always) to avoid battle by proper dialog or by simply walk away fast before they make up their mind.

And if Henry just speeded up his horse without stopping to talk, he would be safer but never know what he missed - just like in real life. Henry could also slow down his horse a little to take a good look at the people before he decides what to do. He may see concealed or open carried weapons which aren’t proper for simple commoners on regular work day and this could hint a trouble (I hope @warhorse would make all carried equipment to be shown on character model and NPC not pulling a sword out of thin air).
Also, there could be one “farmer” gaining Henry’s attention, while his brigand friend from the nearby bush tries to shoot his arrow at him.

Just so many possibilities in an open-world realistic RPG, if the AI is done right The “sweet spot” in a game realism hides in variable (random) interactions and a lot of possibilities and outcomes - the more the better.

Red Dead Redemption and its “random encounters” made a template of how those situations could be implemented in an open-world game. Of course, Rock$tar approached it too raw, too repetitive and soon the player remembered all possible situations and became bored of them. I hope @warhorse would shine with a more sophisticated and improved model

[ProkyBrambora]

Everbody is talking about Red Dead Redemption and I am just sitting here, enjoying my gaming PC.

Jokes aside.

I really like your encounter situation. But you missed one safer and better way for Henry to get as much as possible from this.
Because imo best way to react would be stopping few meters before the group and engage in shouting conversation.

“Who’s this?!”
“We just a bunch of poor farmers, going from field”

this kind of thing.

Note that they could still lie. But it could be obvious lie or more constructed well thought lie.
So if you chance upon bunch of armed to teeth guys claiming to be poor farmers, you will know they are lying.
But then they could claim that they are soldiers called by a lord to serve him, and then murder you when you try to ride past them.

THough this could also get repetitive.
But only way to not make these things repetivie and still keep game full of content is to have a lot of them and each appearing just a few times per game.
And I imagine that would be damn costly. (measured both by money and time)

[sully9088]

I totally agree that this should be a consideration in this game. I was playing Witcher 2 this morning. I walked into an area where soldiers were being attacked by monsters. I approached to help the soldiers, and the soldiers attacked me right away. This occurred because I sided with another faction and they were “technically” my enemy. How would random soldiers know to attack me if I am some random Witcher dude roaming around the wilderness? It would’ve made sense if I heard them say “Look! There is that Witcher who sided with Vergen!” Maybe they caught wind that I am the bad guy from their perspective? But I wouldn’t know unless someone said something. I would rather not have every bandit straight up attack me without a verbal confrontation. Mix it up a bit. Some will lash out without a word, others will ask you to hand over all your coin. Hopefully the A.I won’t be too predictable. I hate when you “learn” the game, and you end up going through the motions. I’m glad you brought this up. Hopefully Warhorse takes it into some consideration.