The Escapist under attack since 4am

[LordCrash]

kain’s ability to be objective is forfeits due to his friendship with many social justice cohorts on twitter. he’s part of the problem related to conflicts of interest in journalism and the capitulation to aggressive agenda pushing.

I have a lot of friends and many of them don’t agree with me on many things. There is no indication that Kain doesn’t have an own opinion on the issue, no matter who his friends are. If you read his articles you would probably easily find out for yourself that he in fact doesn’t like the “social justice cohorts” that much. That’s my suggestion to you: read his articles. Talk about his arguments instead of finding shallow reasons for discrediting him in advance. That’s just poor argumentation and actually the denial of the existence of any form of reason in general…

to take the war analogy, it makes no sense and sit idly by without defending yourself. the “pacificst” option very much resembles sadomasochism. like if you’re nice and friendly enough, your enemies will just leave you alone.

The problem is that there is no real reason for war. The problem is that there are people on two sides who don’t have any real interest in conversation or reasoning. They only care about conducting war (at least their rhetorics indicate that). The problem is that calling others out for bad behaviour and showing bad behaviour on the same level is poor and doesn’t help anyone or anything at all.

Gamergate arose because of the reasons Kain mentioned in the article and yes, deep scepticism towards gaming journalism is one of them. It’s a whole different question if this scepticism is justified or not. Single examples (out of dozends to hundreds of journalists writing in the industry) can’t claim universal proof for the corruption of gaming press. That’s basically also the core fallacy of the gamergate movement imo.

[LordCrash]

What angers me most is that I see that there is bad sexism and that it needs to be addressed. I just watched “The other cops” with Mark Wahlberg and - it’s both a bad movie and it’s full of dangerous and bad sexism. No one wrote about that.

You miss one important point. The feminism/sexism culture war happened in movies decades ago. Movies are much more diversified today. Movies are also not “male-centric” anymore. That doesn’t mean that there is no sexism in movies anymore, not at all. But it means that for each female sexist movie there is probably another movie which is made for a different audience with typcially male stereotypes and male sexism.

The issue at hand is that the gaming industry and especially the gaming journalism is much “younger”. It’s indeed very much male-centric yet (casual games and mobile aside). It’s no wonder that it is attacked by fundamentalist feminists and other people following other fundamentalist equalization movements. If you really think about it: it’s a damn good target.

The good thing is: they already “failed” in movies. Movies like “the other cops” with Mark Wahlberg are the best proof of that and that’s the reason why I constantly say that the whole gamergate movement is unnecessary. These fundamentalists have no real power. They are loud, of course, but that’s about it. Everything else is offer and demand, offer and demand. As long as people want to play sexist, misogynistic or whatever games these games will be made. Business is business. Period. No journalist could change that (the only “real” power to change that is in the hand of the national governments but in the globalized world this isn’t much of an issue anymore).

[Lieste]

Alternatively stuff a sheep with sulphur and leave it for them to take away to eat… oh wait, not that sort of troll.

[phydra]

Not at all; you’re missing several very salient points here, most of which Crash has already outlined:

They are NOT extremely influential. They haven’t managed to blackmail even ONE bigger player in the industry. We are only talking about some small indie games here from very little studios or even single people.

The ONLY reason they are getting ANY traction what so ever is because of the reaction being given to them. Seriously:

What you people do is giving these fundamentalists the attention they wanted. The fundamentalists biggest chance of gaining influence IS to get attention. Without attention nobody really cares about them. Never feed the trolls.

QFT.

And when people like me say that neither the arguments are fair, nor the approach, that it’s not an attempt to drive a discussion but rather to kill any discussion we are retributet with the claims that “women simply are better at socializing and we are the same cellar nerds as twenty years ago”. This makes me angry and seems to cost me a dear friend right now.

I certainly haven’t said that and I do sincerely hope you point your friend to my post. But I also hope you will understand that media coverage is far from being some definitive statement of “popular opinion”.

Let me put it to you this way… how much time or attention do you give to watching the videos and statements of the new ISL? How convinced are you that their movement will “change the world as we know it”?

Do they do ridiculous and horrifying things to get attention? Yes, they do.

Does it mean anything more than that they crave attention and through it, validation of their perspective?

Not at all.

The pattern and its purpose are PRECISELY the same.

By choosing to defend against what is obviously (on any count) and over-exaggerated and politically driven perspective, you are VALIDATING it and giving it MORE ATTENTION and FOUNDATION than it could or would EVER achieve on its own.

So, yes, if that’s your goal, by all means… continue. But don’t be surprised to find it only gets worse. That’s how this pattern unfolds, no matter where it is found.

I can sense this is beginning to drift to its inevitable point of impasse (since conviction in any form is its own indication of intent). We hold very different convictions in relation to this. I respect yours, even as I sincerely believe, feel, and think it is going to harm more than help the goal you state is imperative to you. I’m sure you feel the same in relation to my perspective and truly, that’s ok.

For me, it isn’t about the whole “convince or convert”; primarily because you don’t manage either through argument but also because the very act of trying indicates more interest in a dominant position than in common ground.

Because this is the case, for me, I hope you will forgive my exit from the discussion at this point. Regardless, I do hope this all settles sooner rather than later and that some of the things I’ve attempted to point out will become clearer in the process.

/bow

[specialsymbol]

No, not at all. I didn’t think you did say that, nor do I point my friend towards anything here.

I also understand your reason to exit - and I think you’re partly right. Partly, because you’re right of what happens if everyone continues. I now understand a lot more of the issue. So, thanks a lot!

[Dushin]

Yeah this kinda looks like what I saw the past few weeks. A small minorities on both side with no sense of perspective or reality starting an all engulfing fire.

It’s an excellent post but let’s say companies want to break into another market by catering big budget games to female gamers, what would these games be about and what would they feature? From what I can tell female gamers seem perfectly happy beating the shit out of other people in MMO’s and Wii games etc.

[rustypup]

The entire manufactured saga of #LamerGate is a superb example of how distorted things become around stupid people.

If you’ve felt invested in this “story” or “movement” in any way, might I suggest you log off and go mix with people in social surroundings because your perspective is in need of urgent repair work.

[213]

how is it manufactured? you don’t think there is a serious problem in gaming media that affects the ability of journalist to be objective?

and can people stop saying both sides are the same extremists? gamergate doesn’t call for censorship or attacking people, taking down twitters, or doing ddos attacks on websites they don’t like.

[LordCrash]

you don’t think there is a serious problem in gaming media that affects the ability of journalist to be objective?

I guess that’s exactly what he thinks.

[213]

is he not paying attention or just want to score apathy cool points?

[LordCrash]

is he not paying attention or just want to score apathy cool points?

Maybe he is just disagreeing with you on something?

[Freix]

The problem is that there is no real reason for war. The problem is that there are people on two sides who don’t have any real interest in conversation or reasoning. They only care about conducting war (at least their rhetorics indicate that). The problem is that calling others out for bad behaviour and showing bad behaviour on the same level is poor and doesn’t help anyone or anything at all.

This is simply not true. The only side that doesn’t want conversation is SJWs and their journalist friends. They avoid it as much as they can, labeling every critisism as sexist or harasment or other bullshit. And journalists in most big gamesites deliberately suppress voices of one side, baning people with opposite opinion and deleting every thread related to the issue. In oposite, #gamergate speakers desperately call for discussion, and not only them. People like MundateMat, InternetAristocrat, Daniel Vavra and even TotalBiscuit repeat again and again they want discussion, they want to confront SJWs in public discussion and their voices to be heard alongside with the voices of SJWs. But guess what? Still only oneside crap is published and they are ignored like “those agressive sexist from #gamergate”.

Gamergate arose because of the reasons Kain mentioned in the article and yes, deep scepticism towards gaming journalism is one of them. It’s a whole different question if this scepticism is justified or not. Single examples (out of dozends to hundreds of journalists writing in the industry) can’t claim universal proof for the corruption of gaming press. That’s basically also the core fallacy of the gamergate movement imo.

lol if you want to criticise fallacies, don’t use them yourself. No one claims all journalists are corrupt and it’s not the point. #gamergate would have meaning even if we were speaking only about 5% of journalists if they were in charge. I told you that in another thread and I really don’t get why are you still repeating this straw-man bullshit, because it’s nothing but this. There are only few who decide what will be published, no one cares about random freelance reviewers. And if you are still not convinced that there is HUGE bias in main gamesites even after the latest events, there is only one thing I can say - stop pretending that you are neutral.

Please, show me at least one article from recent days on gamesites like kotaku, gamespot, polygon, gamastura, RPS and such where is at least stated what #gamergate is about or where is ANY confrontaion of SJWs opinions. If you have read those nearly indentical articles about “conservative” C.H. Sommers’ video and leaked conversations of those mainly senior journalists and you still claim that it is a question whether scepticism towards journlists is justified, it’s not even funny. Don’t you think that an information about a group of senior journalists basicaly debating on how they should manipulate public opinion would deserve at least a little mention? It’s a pity that those gamsites don’t care. What a question! Article about 6 months old alleged bomb threat to their damsel in distress is apparentely more interesting.

[213]

stop pretending that you are neutral.

i think we are getting close to the target.

Maybe he is just disagreeing with you on something?

it’s not an opinion issue. either there is a problem in game journalism or there isn’t.

also, i really don’t understand this “ignore them and they’ll go away” crowd. isn’t that what we’ve been doing for the past 4 years? you want to keep doing that until game journalism just flops over and dies? is that your plan? help me understand.

[Fenixp]

you want to keep doing that until game journalism just flops over and dies?

I sure as hell do, unless you want to consider youtube personalities and random blokes on web blogs “Journalists”, which I don’t. Seriously, you can tell that journalism has gone to hell when you can consitently get more reliable and honest information from absolutely random sources than from the professional ones.

[LordCrash]

also, i really don’t understand this “ignore them and they’ll go away” crowd. isn’t that what we’ve been doing for the past 4 years? you want to keep doing that until game journalism just flops over and dies? is that your plan? help me understand.

Your problem is that you only know black and white. There is no “gaming journalism” entity. There are only individual people working in this industry. And like every other human beings gaming journalists are prone to human failures. Your “problem in game journalism” then it’s just how the world turns.

Call me when you have serious proof that a majority of important gaming media and press outlets violate business and journalism ethics on a great scale. Then we speak again about a serious problem we - as normal users interested in a product called video game - have to point out and try to fix. Until that it’ just business as usual, human beings and their individual failures. And yes, that’s really not an opinion issue. That’s a fact.

[Fenixp]

That’s not quite true actually, there’s a fairly specific set of ethics, standards and good practices which one should uphold to be called a journalist. You really don’t need to go far to find the proof, it’s all around us - fullpage ads on games which currently get raving scores on a gaming website, previews which read like sales pitches as opposed to objective information. Again and again, individuals in gaming journalism showed their readers why they cannot be trusted, and they did very little in the ways of remedying the situation, recently even going as far as to write hateful articles aimed against gamers, their own damn readers. As for “gaming journalism” entity, it’s not an entity - it’s a branch of journalism concerned with gaming which is steadily losing trust of their readers, and for a damn good reason.

[LordCrash]

That’s not quite true actually, there’s a fairly specific set of ethics, standards and good practices which one should uphold to be called a journalist. You really don’t need to go far to find the proof, it’s all around us - fullpage ads on games which currently get raving scores on a gaming website, previews which read like sales pitches as opposed to objective information. Again and again, individuals in gaming journalism showed their readers why they cannot be trusted, and they did very little in the ways of remedying the situation, recently even going as far as to write hateful articles aimed against gamers, their own damn readers. As for “gaming journalism” entity, it’s not an entity - it’s a branch of journalism concerned with gaming which is steadily losing trust of their readers, and for a damn good reason.

1. Ads for newly released games is normal business. How do you think gaming sites make any money? Just because a site has ads doesn’t mean it can’t uphold proper and ethical journalism. I’m curious how you think gaming sites or magazines should earn any money…
2. Previews are indeed kind of sales pitches. But that’s the case because journalists have only limited amount of information on new games and often they are not even allowed to talk about everything. So you either have previews which are similar to sale pitches but with a personal flavor or you don’t have any previews at all.
3. Only VERY FEW journalists wrote articles “against gamers/their readers”. You take single examples to make up a generalized claim. That’s a logical fallacy.
4. You have no solid proof that gaming journalism as a whole is loosing trust of their readers.
5. Trust is only “needed” for reviews and its loosing more and more significance due to the wide variety of offerings on the internet. You could easily say that it was never easier and more comfortable and cheaper to get information about games before you buy them. You don’t even have to buy a single magazine for it anymore. And writing about games is much, much more than just reviews. Gaming itself and gaming media has evolved in the past few years. Writing about games is now not only writing technical “buy or buy not” reviews but writing about culture, arts and society as well.
6. Of course there are specific sets of ethics and standards and good practices for gaming journalists. And - surprise - most of the gaming journalists I know stick to them. As I said before, people are prone to failure. But believe it or not, many gaming journalists love their job and they also value the ethics of their occupation.

[PhanTom_CZ]

Gaming journalism may not be a single entity of its own, but it contans various entities, or better said groups, or movements, fellowships or cliques, or whatever you might call it, within itself. Groups (to use a more neutral word) consisting of people sharing specific viewpoints and ideals. All the good and the bad in human society is about the gathering of the like-minded to strive for a common goal.

The fact that there is an active group of people around the gaming industry and journalism that feel like this area is not ideologically open and progressive enough and are willing to try and enforce it if need be is getting pretty apparent. The actual strength of their influence is disputable (the GamerGate by itself proves it to an extent), but they do represent a potential issue without doubt.

@LordCrash, you mentioned earlier how similar sorts of people failed to gain control over the filmmaking industry. Yes and no. Varying pro-social-change activists (feminism, racism) managed to achieve a limited succes in the filmmaking industry and leave an ongoing influence on the mainstream cinema. 1970s brought most of these, like the blaxploitation movement… and today Django Unchained is a major Hollywood blockbuster. And a great movie btw…

But the core problem is somewhere else. It’s not in what agenda is being pursued by some people. If it’s feminism, transgenderism, or whatever. The problem is that ANY agenda is being promoted aggresively and systematically (which it is), even at the possible cost of censorship and control over media by a particular group of people. That is called an ideological propaganda.

It’s actually the flip side of the same coin as with the era of the infamous Hays Code, the Motion Picture Production Code enforced on Hollywood filmmakers by Will Hays and Joseph Breen between 1930s and 1960s.
Their drive came from the still prevailing general social conservativism from the previous decades (and centuries), preserving the ideals of “good old decency” and stuff and it was in many ways a direct contrary to what the current social justice and equality promoters stand for. But their zeal for their goals as well as the means they seem to be willing to use are dangerously similar.
The only question is if they could get a chance to grab themselves the reins like Hays and Breen managed back then.

All they really need is enough (vocal enough) support in right places at the right moment. And they seem to have been pretty much working on that already from all that I have read so far. Including those articles by Erik Kain who (as ultra neutrality-correct as he’s trying to sound like) is also pretty much biased in his statements, only making some extraordinary effort to cover it behind rhetoric. Which makes his accusations of Yiannopoulos in the same issue pretty ridiculous IMO.
And his statements on “right-wing non-gamers (like Adam Baldwin)” posing an equal sort of threat to the gaming industry sound outright laughable. Sorry…

[Fenixp]

1. Ads for newly released games is normal business. How do you think gaming sites make any money? Just because a site has ads doesn’t mean it can’t uphold proper and ethical journalism. I’m curious how you think gaming sites or magazines should earn any money…

Absolutely. I’m not against ads per se, what makes me worried is how games advertised this way tend to get rated very highly. Correlation does not imply causation of course, but starting with infamous case surrounding Jeff Gerstmann which happened in about 2007, I have started questioning motivations of bigger magazines and revenue or not, there is clear conflict of interest there.

2. Previews are indeed kind of sales pitches. But that’s the case because journalists have only limited amount of information on new games and often they are not even allowed to talk about everything. So you either have previews which are similar to sale pitches but with a personal flavor or you don’t have any previews at all.

I’m sorry, but crap like ‘8 reasons to get excited over Titanfall’ has absolutely no place on a site which should as much as resemble a journalistic website. These people should be people with experience, they should know better - I do realize that, as a gamer, it’s difficult to not get excited about cool crap you’ve seen in a trailer, but a journalist should know better and should be able to take the claims publisher/developer makes and dissect them, take past examples, be sceptic.

3. Only VERY FEW journalists wrote articles “against gamers/their readers”. You take single examples to make up a generalized claim. That’s a logical fallacy.
4. You have no solid proof that gaming journalism as a whole is loosing trust of their readers.

I’ll bunch these two together because I feel that they are related - yes, you are absolutely correct, all of these things are isolated cases and I’m sure that 90% of gaming journalists out there are trying to be honest, direct and … well, actual journalists. I’m sure that if a bunch of guys arguably gave better score to a game after sleeping with a dev, most people would not really care. But you want a proof that gaming journalism is losing trust? Look around you. Look at this topic. Look at the shitstorm that ensued, at the shitstorm which should have ended at “These guys probably shouldn’t have done that”. The shitstorm is not because of this one, single incident, the shitstorm happened because this single incident topped off a whole string of incidents before. And I feel sorry for the people who are just caught in the crossfire, I really am - but what I am voicing here, now, is how I, personally, feel about modern gaming journalism, and the fact that I find it increasingly difficult to find useful information in professional magazines remains unchanged.

5. Trust is only “needed” for reviews and its loosing more and more significance due to the wide variety of offerings on the internet. You could easily say that it was never easier and more comfortable and cheaper to get information about games before you buy them. You don’t even have to buy a single magazine for it anymore. And writing about games is much, much more than just reviews. Gaming itself and gaming media has evolved in the past few years. Writing about games is now not only writing technical “buy or buy not” reviews but writing about culture, arts and society as well.

Really? I don’t know. I just don’t. Do people care about trust when consuming gaming news and developments? I know I do. Perhaps most people don’t. I can’t speak for them.

As for any proof and hard data - I would love to find them. If you get your hands of some, please, let me know, I will gladly be proven wrong. I am not able to find any such thing, and so all I can derive my information from is me, my peers and various discussion boards and other social services.

[213]

mr-cappadocia.tumblr.com/post/97960766962/i-couldve-told-him-sjws-wont-stop-because-they

not a problem?