Different arrow types

Yeah, that guy Lindybeige (Nicolas Lloyd) is one of my favorite Youtubers. He was offered to be a historical consultant on the movie Ironclad, to which he declined, since he knew they wouldn’t listen to him anyway. That movie turned out to be very historically incorrect… although it has good action scenes (funny thing, Lloyd has a few videos where he bash the inaccuracies of that movie.)

Indeed, if the developers of this game asked him to be a consultant and really listened to what he had to say (since apparently Lloyd is into, well, at least old-fashioned pen-and-paper RPG’s) then I would be really glad. There’s also another guy on youtube who has a lot of good things to say, and who is also a fan of Lloyd (Lindybeige), and that guy’s channel is called Schola Gladiatoria

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aiming between a slit in the helmet visor? that’s pure fantasy

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If you stand close enough to someone, saw twenty feet and fire an arrow at his face it will either hit him in the neck/through the aventail or scare the crap out of him. That said the breathing holes also make for a weak point in the pig faced bascinet visor so at a really close range you might just get the steel to buckle there.

No archer would dare to fight against a melee soldier in full armor in short distance. So I agree with 212 that “aiming for the visor or breathing holes” is pure fantasy and has nothing to do with reality. Archers were auxiliary troops for long range attacks and defence and in most cases they shot their arrows with a curve on the field without aiming at someone specific. These troops were not used in close fights (at least not as archers).

That said an armored knight would use a shield against archers which would made it almost impossible to hit the head.

Archers were definitely not auxiliary troops. Hell in most English armies of the 15th century they formed by far the largest part of an army. If your read some accounts of the Battle of Agincourt you know that archers were expected to fight after they shot all their arrows and most were reasonable equipped to do so.

Yes and no.

England was the only country of that time which gave their archers a special even elite status. So yes, speaking about English troops archers were indeed a crucial part of their warfare. And English archers were also known for their great discipline and training which allowed them to even fight in close combat.

In most other parts of Europe like the Empire, Italy or France archers were indeed considered auxiliary troops which should support knights and men-at-arms of even the melee infantry. For the biggest part of Europe not English warfare and tactics but French warfare and tactics - relying on cavalry attacks and heavily armored men-at-arms - remained the main inspiration for troops and tatics until the mid of the 15th century. I don’t say that archers and crossbowmen (which were even considered more worthy than archers in Italy for example) were unimportant, not at all. Quite on the contrary, there were a crucial part of many armies of that time and they were that effective that at the end of the 14th century most armies even had mounted light infantry and archers (known before from the Hungarians and the Middle East troops and Arabs). But nevertheless they most often couldn’t fight alone and they lack serious attacking strength. It’s also worth to mention that in Germany and the Empire panzerreiter or renners were considered the most powerful force on the battlefield, rootet in the French tradition of heavily armoured knights. These knights often formed orders and were available for hire coming with up to three additional mounted warriors for each knight. Of course crossbowmen (often guarded by an additional soldier with a big shield) and archers were able to fight against them - often shown during the 100 years war - but that was dependant of the situation. The dominance of the archery was seen in the battle of Agincourt, yes, but in the mid 15th century battle of Formigny heavily armoured French men-at-war crushed a big force of Englishmen who greatly outnumbered the French by several cavalry attacks. This was possible by clever field tactics. A clever strategy could always win the day, no matter which troops you had available… :wink:

Maybe the battle of Nicopolis of 1396 in which Sigismund himself led European crusaders against Ottomans and Turkmans is the best example of warfare and tactics which may be present in the game. Although many sources seem to greatly exaggerate the numbers of combatants it clearly seems that the mounted men-at-arms were still the most important force of central European forces at that time. But of course each army consisted of many different troops, heavy cavalry, light cavalry, archers and infantry. Together they offered various strategies and possibilities…

Maybe “auxiliary troops” is the wrong word. What I wanted to say was that archers didn’t play that a big role in the warfare of continental European forces up to the mid of the 15th century (or up to the usage of gunpower on a larger scale on battlefields). Crossbowmen and archers were important factors on the battlefield but on the continent of Europe often less important than heavily armoured knights and men-at-arms.

Well my main point was not that they were not auxiliary troops but that they definitely fought in melee combat and didn’t simply run away when a knight came close to them. You have to take into account that sieges made up something approximating 80% of all battles and even when fighting a pitched battle the archers would usually set up a barricade to ward of enemy attackers and shoot them from relatively close ranges. Think the stakes at Agincourt or the wagon train at Poitiers. Certainly by the war of the roses all archers had helmets, stuffed jackets (gambesons) and some even had armor nearing full plate armor. They wouldn’t just fire all their arrows and scurry off to let their compatriots die in battle but would move in to assist in melee combat. It is then that local superiority of numbers can really turn the tide of battle. Surely a lone archers would not fare well against an armored knight but when five of them single out a knight on foot the odds stack in their favor.

You’re absolutely right about siege warfare. I was only referring to encounters in the open field. Archers and crossbowmen were of crucial importance when defending a city or castle.

But I still disagree about archer tactics in the open field. English archers were more known for the long distance “shower” tactics to hit horses and to demoralize the approaching cavalry (both horses and their riders). In close combat the risk of hitting the own forces were often too high. Setting up barricades were only possible with enough time of preparation and nevertheless you could set them up from the sides. Crossbowmen were way more valuable for that task, by the way (at least for central European and Italian forces). And while you’re right with the armoured archers and crossbowmen, they usually weren’t used for melee combat since they lack the training and weapons for fighting against cavalry or regular infantry. As I said, English elite archers were known for the exceptional discipline and training so many of them were able to fight in close combat and to withstand enemy approaches. But that was the exception in medieval warfare and not the rule.

I think you look too much at the 100 years war and English troops and tactics (Agincourt and such). The problem is that most European armies were not like the English troops but like the French troops, relying on heavy mounted men-at-arms. As I said before the battle of Nicopolis is a way better example of the tactics and troops used in Bohemia at 1400. But of course every medieval battle was different (geography, troops, moral, strategic and tactial approaches, weather, ground,…) so it’s hard to make general statements. A good leader could win almost any battle with almost any kind of army if choosing the right strategy and tactics, with or even without archers… :wink:

I never said I disagreed with that

Well no other army fielded archers in such numbers like the English, other nations used crossbowmen or hired English archers (think Burgundy). So when I am talking about archers I am referring to the English ones since they were the only one really worth mentioning in my opinion.

I just stated archers were not auxiliary in English armies.

Hey man we can discuss archers all day but not without talking about the English. I just stated Archers were not auxiliary in the English army which is basically the only army in which archers armed with longbows did anything at all. I never said army composition in this game should be anything like that of the English but we simply cannot discuss a longbow archers without bringing in the English, that would be like discussing Gendarmes without talking about the French or katanna without Japan.

In all honesty I actually think archers should be mostly left out of this game because it is set in Bohemia where only a select few would be able to fire a warbow with enough proficiency to make it worthwhile for an army to recruit them. But hey, some people do not think a crossbow is as heroic as a longbow so we’ll probably see them anyways.

Well, there were archers as regular parts of the troops in Bohemia at 1400, so imo they should be in. :wink:

I think we took a different approach in this discussion: you wanted to discuss archery in general referring to the English troops in medieval warfare while I wanted to discuss the relevance of archery in Bohemia at the time the game takes place. But I think we agree on most points with that different approach in mind. I totally agree on all your point if addressed to English troops (I actually said that already).

Hmm yeah it seems we’re both discussing something different. What would you actually say is the ratio if archers to crossbowmen in the armies of/in Bohemia. I have some sources on Nicopolis but not an awful lot on that.

Well, not all that easy to say…

According to David Nicolle the crusaders’ army in the battle of Nicopolis depended on the country they were from. Among the Franco-Burgundian forces there was a traditional heavy reliance on armoured cavalry which reflected the Burgundian society. Although there was a rising importance of infantry during the 14th century there also was a reversal of that importance in France, Burgundy and wide parts of Germany during the 1390s. As France was still considered the fountainhead of the Chivalry in central Europe the German aristocratic armies mirrored that of the French. German and French cavalry at that time was usually organized in gleven (German) or lences (French) consisting one fully armoured man-at-war supported by one mounted crossbowman or archer and one mounted page.
The Franco-Bungundian army basically consisted of various Hôtels which means military house armies or households of important senior noblemen. The leader of the French army, the Count of Never brought 108 knights, 107 squires, 12 archers and 22 crossbowmen with him. That means that 13,6% of his army consisted of archers or crossbowmen which was more than in previous Burgundian armies but still a rather small number (especially compared to English forces for example).
The Hungarian forces in the crusaders’s army followed some different principles. Hungary introduced Western European military systems in the late 14th century with the establishment of baronial armies. At the same time they stick to former systems including the insurrectio which means the entire knightly class, special non-noble groups and in case of emergency even the entire male polulation. So the Hungarians had a very varied army with an elite of armoured cavalry like in the rest of central Europe but also with numerous horse archers often recruited among the non-noble warriors of the steppe (often Mongols and other minorities). Seeing the need for a light cavalry King Sigismund of Hungary (the later emperor) ordered in 1395 that each Hungarian lance-armed heavy cavalryman should be accompanied by two mounted archers.
According to Betrand de la Brocquière 30 years after the crusade Sigismund only had 200 Lombardian and Genoese crossbowmen with him among 25,000-30,000 Hungarians (these numbers are according to Nicolle and other modern historians probably too high but the rate should be obvious). Brocquière further said: In the border territory between Austria and Bohemia there are light crossbowmen. In Hungary there are archers with bows like the ones of the Turks but they are not as good or as strong. Nor are the people as good shots. The Hungarian shoot with three fingers and the Turks with the thumb and the ring finger.
In the aftermath of the crusade Sigismund seemed to acknowlege the importance of a strong light cavalry again by establishing a militia portalis in 1397 in which Hungarian landowners had to provide one light cavalryman from every 20 tenant holdings, probably equipped as mounted archers.

What does all of that mean in respect to the equipment and composition forces? Well, I can’t say for sure but I guess that Bohemia basically followed German (and therefore French) trends as a crucial part of the Empire. Maybe their systems were influenced by Hungarian forces as well since Sigismund was both the king of Hungary and later the emperor of the HRE. That would mean that the Bohemian forces would rely on heavy cavalry like the French and Germans with the support of some (also mounted) crossbowmen and archers and other regular infantry. Do you have better sources for the composition of Bohemian forces at about 1400?

Sources (both really recommended if you don’t know them):

  • David Nicolle: Nicopolis 1396: The Last Crusade
  • David Nicolle: European Medieval Tactics: 1260-1500
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Not really but by going over the enemy troops the Hussites faced not much later it seems the royal army was indeed very heavy cavalry centric.

Yeah, that might be true indeed.

Shown arrowheads are English, not Bohemian (“Type 16” used at Crécy, “Bodkin” at Azincourt). Indeed it would be interesting to see the arrowheads used in Bohemia at the time; “Bodkin”-shape is likely, Hungarian-type broad-blade, Polish (Slav)-type twisted sock, barbed (against horses). But not “Type 16”.

Dear sweet merciful God, are you people all history majors?

I’ve never seen such a concentration of civil nerdiness in my life…it’s…beautiful.

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I’m sorry if this was mentioned already, didn’t read very carefully. But I really hate burning arrows being every where in video games and I hope they will be limited to where they are actually practical (if they are actually useful for anything)

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They were useful in sieges in order to lay fire in towns and castles. And they were useful when combined with hot oil, often used in castle defense.

But in open field battle? Not so much.

Be sure to aim for the visor or face when the visor is up.

visor or face when the visor is up.

when the visor is up.

That is all.

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Some depictions in art and practical experience reveal that visors were most often down when advancing upon an enemy with missile troops or when charging on horseback. When in close combat many would raise it because the little protection it offered would be well traded for nearly full visibility and the ability to breath properly, and you had a better chance to defend your face with your weapon.

I really wonder how it affect this game, whether a visor down might make it harder to catch a breath or reduce visibility like in War of the Roses.