Q&A about details of the time and the location

Story & Setting
#21

Except the two sources I mentioned. You know, books by historians?

Heck, even a random web search turns up several works dealing at least partly with this myth.

I am literally not saying that at all. How on earth did you get that idea.

#22

So if water from river wasnt healthy 

and if fresh water was risky 

and if you not saying that they could drink boiled water


What else should all the people in medieval times then drink in your opinion???

#23

I don’t know what people in the middle ages would have drunk if those assumptions actually were correct. But they aren’t, which is what historical research tells us.

#24

Which one is not correct?

  1. Water out of river is not healthy
    or
  2. Fresh water was risky.
    Or both?

(Edit: When there are tannerys and butchrs next to rivers (and poo in there) is see no way how 1 can be false for all rivers. When we know many storys about people who throw stuff in wells (historical research), then I also see no way how 2 can be false. Also: It is risky because you cannot see if the water you have got is fresh water or out of the river
)

#25

Of course it is not going to be false for every single inch of every single river at every single point of history of the world. But is that how you support your argument? By saying that taking a swim in the sea is going to give you cancer because of the Fukushima disaster? Because that’s the same warped logic and that’s how ridiculous you sound.

By the way rivers were often secondary to wells and springs in their function as water sources for medieval people, something you can read about in one of the books I mentioned. Medieval people were not some inept imbeciles that would walk around shitting into their wells and drinking from them afterwards. They were fairly normal folks who would drink perfectly good water from perfectly normal and available sources.

#26
  1. I would say that much more than 50% of the rivers in the HRR had tannerys and butchers. Thats no warped logic.
  2. The only secure solution is to drink water direktly out of the spring. The rest (including wells) is risky. People did often throw things in wells and if you want, then I will try to post sources. And in citys the quality of the water in wells was often bad (at least in the HRR)

So what is not corrrect here?

#27

I await your posting of sources which would disprove my original claim backed by historical research that beer was not drunk because it was healthier than water with bated breath.

#28

OK

for example:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27632363?uid=3737864&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103613832043

p. 573
He says something like: People in the citys of the HRE are big idiots, because they thought they would get clean water out of their wells (and rivers).

There is much more literature but Im not able to translate that stuff
For wells in HRE citys they all say:
Most not deeper than 10m
Not build with stone or wood until beginning water
Next too where people put their poo and rubbisch (we know that exactly)
risk of illnes = very hgih

Edit:
Reconstruction of archeological foundings in HRE Citys (typical). Yummi!
(“Brunnen”=Well “Kloake”= storage for the excrements)

1 Like
#29

My German is rusty at best, so feel free to correct any mistakes I might have made.

Having said that, I believe you have either accidentally misinterpreted the text, are arguing in bad faith using cherrypicked examples, or outright lying. Again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Rather than say how stupid the folks of the HRE were – your claim – doesn’t p. 572 state that despite the innate hygienic problems that arise in densely populated areas (“throwing trash out of the windows”), city ordnances were enacted to keep them hygienic and clean (such as in Strasbourg where refuse was to be collected in designated places)?

On that very page doesn’t it also mention how in 1434 Enea Piccolomini talks about the pure and tasty waters of Basel?

A traveller extolling the virtues of cold and sweet water in LĂŒbeck in 1438?

Johann Cochlaeus praising the clean streets of NĂŒrnberg in 1512?

Then, turning to page 573, about how interested the authorities were in the issue of hygiene and cleanliness and dealt with it in the 13th to 15th centuries?

Also on page 573, various types of wells are mentioned, from simple solutions to complex ones. And indeed a problem is found – with the wells in Basel. Which are said to be convenient in that they are numerous (each house having one?), but that this comes at a disadvantage as they often are close to the latrines.

Discussing another kind, the communal well, the paper describes how the neighbors would take care of it. And if a cat happened to fall into it, then the well would have to undergo a thorough cleaning, the costs of which would be paid in part by the city authorities.

(Literally nothing on page 573 about the people of HRE being “big idiots” for thinking they could get clean water from the wells, or any mention of health hazard as far as I can tell. Or am I wrong?)

Pages 574 and 575 appear to further discuss well maintenance, funding et cetera – and also regular inspections and cleaning by the authorities, commendable activities, wouldn’t you say?

Then the third type of well is mentioned, again no word about the stupid folks of the HRE drinking their own feces or whatever it is you claim, only mentions of these waterworks being massive financial and industrial undertakings.

To be fair there is a mention of the quality of water in what appears to be system supplying the breweries in LĂŒbeck in 1291 being doubtful as there was a slaughterhouse nearby.

Page 575 then ends with a note about private companies also running the water supply sometimes.

Some more details about various wells and waterworks in German cities, yadda yadda, about Church buildings having their own water supply sometimes
 wow, is that page 577 already? It is.

And with it, more and more mentions of how hygiene, pollution and disposal of waste was regulated.

How gravediggers (?) were prohibited from washing in public fountains, how a ban on using the wells at night was enacted, how different wells were to be used for different purposes: drinking, washing, for animals
 Also about how washing your feet or hands in the market well in NĂŒrnberg was prohibited.

“Drastic penalties” are then said to be imposed for contaminating and poisoning the wells. Skinning alive in Siena, drowning, is it, in Freiburg.

Damaging wells or unlawfully tapping into them somehow were also punishable, and wells were fitted with grids to protect them.

Anyway, my point is – next time, try to use a source which A) says what you claim it does, and B) does not portray water supply and hygiene in German cities as what to me seems like a fairly well organized, closely regulated, materfully crafted and generally important undertaking. Oh and also C) actually addresses the point I was making.

#30

I was talking about that one: (Translations are in the next post of @YuusouAmazing)

“Die Zeitgenossen glaubten allerdings an die nahezu unbegrenzte Selbstreinigungskraft fließender GewĂ€sser und an die AufnahmefĂ€higkeit der Erde.”

I was unable to translate it correct. I think you are better in this. I have chosen this, because it was the big “BUT” and the end of the pro hygienic chapter, and becaus it is in a strong contrast to your opinion. (I translated People of HRE for “Zeitgenossen”; Idiots because they believe in a myth
)

Now that I know your German is great, I have another quote. But its a book


Dass es infolge der oftmals direkt benachbarten Anlage von Brunnen und Abfall- sowie FĂ€kalgruben “hĂ€ufig zu Verunreinigungen und sogar Verseuchungen (kam)”, kann als gesichert gelten.

Schutz, Anne: Essen und Trinken im Mittelalter. p. 728.

If I could go with a time machine there, then I would drink no water. Ongly directy out of a spring


#31

Oh, that part – belief that water and soil would somehow purify itself maybe (?) – well of course medieval people would not have the understanding of natural sciences we do. However that passage in no way implies they were stupid for believing they could get fresh water from wells – because they could! Surely you can see for yourself that the following pages of the very paper you linked to prove exactly that. They paint a much, much different picture than that of awful, infested, unclean wells. Just think about it, water is necessary to human survival, and people in the middle ages weren’t stupid, they didn’t want to die.

#32

Therfore they prefered to drink beer. At least the people who had eneugh money to do that


#33

I will admit I am not really interested in continuing this “discussion”, since you have simply ignored two perfectly good books on medieval history stating the opposite, and have only provided a source that you apparently have not read yourself and which actually contradicts your previous claims about water supply and which offers zero support to your claims about beer.

#34

You may read until the end. Beginning on the end of p.584

man lebte mit Provisiorien, mit ungesundem Wasser aus Bleirohren, mit Holzröhren, die mehr Wasser verloren als sie zum Ziel brachten, und mit Grundwasserbrunnen, die es nahelegten, besser Bier oder Wein als Wasser zu trinken.

And take a look at the valid book I have posted (even with page number). It is based on many archeological foundings
 But its not in jstor
 (I could scan some pages)

Edit: BTW: I havent ignored your books. But at least I need a page number, and the complete name of the autor. Scanning some pages would safe the way to the library for me

@YuusouAmazing Didnt you make the suggestion o translate some things? Could you translate the last three german quotes. Im not good enough and some team members asked for valid historical sources and therefore a good translation would be important


#35

@Ulfberht: Of course I did, but this thread didn’t get to my attention yet because it’s not in the German question thread and I barely had time lately to read through the posts. :wink:

The contemporaries believed indeed in the nearly unlimited self healing power of running waters and absorption ability of the earth.

As a result of the directly neighboring wells and waste and fecal pits it can be assured that “it had often lead to pollutions and even infestations”.

One lived with provisional arrangements, with unhealthy water coming out of lead pipes, with wooden pipes which lost more water than carrying it to their destination, and with ground water wells, which advised it’s better to drink beer or wine instead of water.

If you need more translations, you can always add my name just like you did before, I’ll definitely notice that and translate it. :smiley:

1 Like
#36

@14th

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