That’s an odd thing to say. We don’t know what the path is until we’ve walked it. We’ve been shown glimpses of landmarks along the trail, but that’s far from the whole story. It’s like saying you know what to expect from brave heart because you’ve heard it’s about guys in skirts fighting for freedom. We don’t know how our story will unfold and we don’t want to ban any materials from the artist unnecessarily. That’s why I believe discussions like this are good so we can get a feel for what we are ok with and how to best portray things brainstorming creative ways to not only add immersion, but to build a unique and vibrant world with all of it’s brilliant light along with the dark shadows that it cast.
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I understand what you mean and I can agree to it from a certain perspective. But the question you need to ask is; does it really add to the game or is it time and money spent on something that does not really add to the game?
I still think Warhorse have thier story thought out and that they follow it.
The answer is we don’t know if it adds to the game or not. Much like we don’t know if fish in the water or deer in the forest will add to the game. Will birds flying in the sky add to the game? We can’t say yes or no regardless of the story because we don’t know the story. We can make an assumption these things will add to the game regardless of their indirect roles, but that’s really as far as we can go.
I honestly don’t care if I see something from that list ingame nor would I be offended, it would definitely not take something away from the game - what I care about is how the game presents it and how the world reacts to it. IMO that should be as realistic as possible for the society from that certain time period.
You just caught a female couple:
1 Go to the guards and they’ll burn tomorrow.
2 Maybe they’ll try to bribe you, will you accept? Tell it anyway after you got the money? Keep quiet without the money? What would you do if you’re on a “mission” from your lord to find out if the rumors are true… lie to him and risk a lot to save somebody else?
2 Blackmail them, maybe they’ll pay… maybe they’ll try to kill you… or flee… or hide… will you go on a hunt or let them be?
3 Help them by making sure it stays a secret… maybe you’ll get in trouble because you kept it secret? You got drunk and accidently said something to the wrong person without harmful intentions? Too bad, they’ll burn tomorrow. Or will you bribe that NPC? Kill him/her?
4 …
Lots of choices and events for an interesting quest/story line where pretty much every character build gets involved and aslong as It is not happening everywhere or the NPCs rub it into your face by doing stuff like that way too open where it’s clear that they’ll get catched fast - aka a hidden quest that only triggers if you broke into the wrong house at the wrong time or walked into the wrong forest area at a certain time and so on it’s fine for me.
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Realism should stop when it ruins gameplay without adding something ABSOLUTELY necessary for the atmosphere of the game.
As always there are choices to be made, but in my opinion this should be the way to follow when dealing with this aspect of the game.
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I agree…(count 20)
Please don’t mention kneecaps when discussing realism in an RPG.
I agree with Kraft. If these aspects which Madaras put forward are introduced in the game, they must fit to the 15th century. Women were raped (the same way they are today) and especially (as long as I am concerned) housemaids and the ones of the poorest classes. Here could be also mentioned the ius prima noctis (I think it is written like that). Homosexuality could be introduced as Kraft says. There was hostility against the minorities, not only against homosexuals but against muslims, jews, foreigners…
About disease and illness I must say that I am a bit tired of watching every NPC strong and healthy with perfect teeth. It is Middle Age, hygiene was terrible.
I’m not saying that there should be a quest for these aspects, but they must be present when creating a game that wants to remain accurate to reality.
By the way I would like to ask you about the age of the NPCs. Would you like a game with babies, young boys and girls and real elders (having in mind that life expectancy wasn’t high)?
Well to answer the thread you should take realism as far is it is not contrary to what you try to achieve with the game. I think the Witcher is a decent game to compare this game too. It had persecuted minorities, implied rape, whorehouses etc etc. It all added to the atmosphere in the game and didn’t seem obtrusive/tacked on or otherwise bothersome at one point.
Now what Warhorse is trying to achieve is a balanced and realistic depiction of Early 15th century Bohemia. So it isn’t Lancelot riding on his white horse rescuing damsels everywhere and it isn’t the Monty Python in the piss and shit ages where everyone is covered in muck and everything is grimdark.
Now if someone here wants to include rape in this game somehow I can really only thing on two or three scenarios. Within a village community it would probably be handled by laymen or even families together to settle on a fine, keep the whole thing hush hush and raise a resulting kid as one of their own. When an army is looting a town that didn’t surrender in time the soldiers would get their way with the inhabitants if their commander allowed it, there are however many cases of commanders forbidding looting, burning and rape on pain on losing a hand or even on the pain of death. Third possibility would involve something in a city setting with richer people or even nobility accusing someone and dragging them before court (either secular or church). I can’t really imagine how our blacksmith Henry would fit in those scenarios. Even if you caught them in the act you would probably not jam a knife between his (or her) ribs because you aren’t a vigilante of some sort. You might have to testify in court (which could possible lead to some interesting dialog options where a nobles pays you money to keep your mouth shut) but that’s all I can think off.
Regarding minorities, well it depends. If a Tartar holds a sword against your throat you probably act kind and if you need money you are not going to mistreat Jewish moneylenders. If a Novgorod-ian Orthodox trader passes by your town you aren’t going to rob him blind either. Human decency existed back then just not all the time.
Not sure what someone would want to do with diseases in-game, they are confirmed for being able to affect Henry AFAIK (read up on the STATS mechanic) just like sleep and hunger.
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I know that it wasn’t a dark dirty time, that point of view comes from the renaissance, but anyway hygene wasn’t the best at all. Waste pipes (are they called like this?) were absent so public baths had relevance for example at least in citites and it also lead to the expresión “Gardy-Loo” (“agua va” here in Spain).
About the minorities, I meant that there were prejudices (just as today) due to origin, ideology, religion… and they could lead to hostilities (here in Spain for example jews were sent to exile)
Life expectancy wasn’t high for many reasons, but primarily the young tend to die fast due to recklessness and wars. However once you reached a certain age you could expect to reach a good age unless you found yourself with a disease that you couldn’t fight off. Overall you’re right though.
I’m about 50/50 in agreement with your statement. With the exception of your comment [quote=“Dushin, post:29, topic:15559”]
I can’t really imagine how our blacksmith Henry would fit in those scenarios. Even if you caught them in the act you would probably not jam a knife between his (or her) ribs because you aren’t a vigilante of some sort.
[/quote]
Really…considering the three play styles are bard, warrior, and assassin I don’t see why it would be unimaginable to jab a knife in someones ribs for raping another person. (Except for maybe if you’re a bard.) You’re a human with a conscience and you’re fighting and killing. One thing you certainly wouldn’t mind is killing the women who’s raping a poor boy. (or man or whoever.)
I think life expectancy had even more to do with dying in childhood or infancy than wars and such, diseases and hunger are to blame. Looking at my family tree 12 seems to be the magical age that once you pass it lets you reach adulthood. I even got some ancestors born in the sixteenth century who somehow reached 80.
I can already imagine it.
“Hey whassup king clausy, I eh… I jammed a knife between the ribs of quartermaster because I saw him getting his way with this nun”
“HENNNRY!!! Not cool man, totally not cool! You are so fired”.
Well actually being fired might be the least you could expect.
Anyways An Assassin might fight in now I think about it. Some noble women wanting revenge/honor killing, bypassing court and publicity. Of course the same can be done in the village setting, would like it if they made it some sort of moral complex though. Maybe a monk or nun who feeds the poor and is good 364 days a year but not the 365th day. Same with the noble thing where killing this one noble might severely cripple the military command of “the good” faction.
@Madaras… it took me about an hour to figure out if i was going to post here. and i still don’t know how i should word this.
it almost sounds like you are looking for something that IMO a game doesn’t need to be good. relationships in games are to help drive a story i think. and having a homosexual relationship in a game like this is not only not realistic (for what ever that may be worth) but i just don’t think its necessary. and and the fact you had to make two threads JUST to argue your case to try to make it seem like it is necessary just isn’t landing for me. but if i EVER some how manage to get around to actually making the game i am writing i will send you a PM to know when to expect it as i DID integrate the option (from the beginning) to have a relationship with who ever the player wanted. but as i said my games story is driven by this. Warhorses story may not be. don’t force it man…
well i think i found a good way to express (with the little knowledge i have about making a game) why i think this topic is just not needed. i hope it wasn’t to harsh about it though. hope all is good.
That’s why the statistics excluding people dying before the age of 5 or 6 are the only ones that hold relevant data about primitive societies with high infant death rate (amazonian indians, subsaharan african tribes, medieval tech and medicines-level societies). When most adults die at the age of around 50, each pair gives birth to 6-12 kids out of which 3-5 die pretty soon, the life expectancy gets significantly lowered.
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Medieval level of medicines was easily a millennium above Amazonian Indians and Subsaharan african tribes. I got a few neat accounts (in old Dutch) about primitive brain surgery being preformed in the 11th century.
It kinda relates to this somewhat funny documentary.
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I don’t know how you came to the conclusions I wrote to threads to make the same case. This thread is about realism in games and “how far should it be taken” because as I mentioned (a few months back) there is obviously lines that we know shouldn’t be crossed, but where are those lines. That’s pretty much the point of this thread. Though I do appreciate being kept in the loop about any interesting games so thanks.
Why? I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow to the knee!!
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ive seen mud crabs more fearsome than you !
Indeed I do. I think it’s been greatly overlooked in all forms of media (well except for porn and you-tube celebrities and we know how they’re flourishing) I grew up with it always man falls for girl, Girl is put in danger, man saves girl, girl blows man…(or in more G rated thing marries man) That has been done over and over until now it’s simply predictable. We have the Man and women stereotype and even movies like (the recent) Godzilla have become well stupid because they plug in that “expected” norm, and try to use that norm HARD to pull at your heart strings, and so nothing is unexpected. Love is a beautiful thing and it doesn’t need to fit in a cookie cutter pattern. I for one love women I really do. Romantically and emotionally I’m attracted to them, however physically I’d never want to have sex with them. It just feels wrong and gross and awful. (No offence ladies) however men can be charming and incredibly (sexually) attractive. So I don’t fit the gay stereotype or heterosexual. Because I’m a man who wants to marry a women and a bi-sexual man (so that she can get some too) However that’s a little about me personally and I only mention it to make a point and that is there is more to humans than a single minded direction. More than one path more ways of experiencing the world around us. If we allow ourselves to not be cultivated by the “norms”. Not that norms are bad, they help to define us as well and the come about by the majority of people in a location being similar. However one does not need to be forced into a norm and vice verse all parties can accept each other and even enjoy each other. Heck even I want to see the little mermaid meet her prince.
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