Slavery at This Time

Story & Setting
#21

hmm… as far as I understood the question was, if

or if there are

impotend criteria for me and @LordCrash are:

  1. are serfs property of their owners?
  2. are serfs allowed to have property?
  3. if not, who owns their income?
  4. can the lord hurt or kill his serf without legal punishment?

I would say there are some forms of serfdom where we could say:
1=yes, 2=no, 3=lord and even 4=yes (maybe serfs of knights with “Imperial immediacy”)
and therefore I would say that there are at least some forms of Serfdom which have much in common with slavery.
But I’m no expert and therefore I suggested that some better informed forum members could make some answers about 1,2,3 and 4. Really interesting would be how the situation was in the location where the game takes place. Will serfs be more like slaves or more like yeoman*?

*= I mean a peasant who owns the land where he is working, or who is leasing it (in the holy roman empire)

#22

We are talking about serfom in game (HRE/Bohemia 1403).
Answers would be I think

  1. no
  2. yes
  3. corvée
  4. Serfs had rigths but lesser than their lords. If I remember well lord had to pay penalty for killing a serf or something like that.
#23

Thanks for the replies/'info, just increased my knowledge a smidgin XD

#24

Both serfdom and slavery include a variety of traditions.

You cannot compare chattel slavery in the New World with slavery in Ancient Rome for example.

Same with serfdom. Its exact definition and balance of duties/rights were very dependent on both time and location.

I’m not familiar enough with Bohemia to know how exactly it was there at that time, but am just saying that certain forms of slavery and serfdom are very close to each other, and certain forms were night & day.

#25

@Ulfberht

You’ve nailed this one, Ulfberht. If Serfdom wasn’t that bad and wasn’t a form of slavery of sorts in itself, why doesn’t it exist any longer, and why did people fight so long to end it? (i.e. Russia 1863)

#26

Haha I can almost hear the sound of people googling around for infomation about this, including me…
But I hope that this game will be kind of gritty and dark!

#27

As a serf, you have obligations to your Lord. You have to give him a part of your yield, so he can eat. After a while, people began to want to emancipate from their lords and keep all their yield for themselves. You know, so they can pass winter or sell the surplus.

Also, there were all the geopolitical matter too. Less little kingdoms and more stability.

What I want to say is that serfdom was a necessity at the time. And that necessity disappeared because society evolved.

1 Like
#28

gritty&dark=/=realism. that’s just a stylistic choice.

#29

I’m not saying they should add gritty and dark stuff if it doesn’t fit in! But this feels like a game where some sad stuff would give a lot more atmosphere

#30

Yep sad and cruel stuff has happened at all times in history although there were lighter and darker times in different parts of the world. Arguably the period of the middle ages in Europe was one of the lighter times.

#31

Whether serf suffer a slave like existence or not doesn’t just depend on their legal status. I think it also matters how high the Tithe is, whether they have the right to get there own wood fish and hunt. Those where issues during the peasent wars 100 years later IIRC. But those things might varied a lot depending on the region. When the nobility holds all the cards serfs my just effectively have a slave like existence. We can’t assume that anyone always observed or cared if there rights where uphold. But I really don’t know anything specific to the region and time frame.

#32

Slavery has been around for centuries. Long before the Dark Ages. How it was viewed then is much different than how it is viewed today. There were many ways people were enslaved. Some it was because they were not able to pay a debt and had to work it off. Some it was life-long enslavement and others could be a multi-generational enslavement. Here is another thought wasnt everyone enslaved except for the free Citizenry and above. To earn your freedom the Lord of the land had to decree your freedom and sometimes you might even get land of your own. So then you would also be of Nobility and a Lord. Didn’t happen very often at all. So slavery as we see it was mostly forbidden, but the other forms of slavery did happen.

#33

Millenniums not centuies.

#34

Slavery was universal on the entire European continent till around 500-600 AD. The Romans, Britons, Celts, Germans, Greeks, North African, Persian etc etc. all practiced slavery. Most of these peoples never kept a good record of their history so we don’t know when the practice started but I think it’s safe to assume that it started somewhere during the bronze age if not earlier. Agricultural improvements and the Roman Catholic Church actually worked towards abolishing the practice in Europe (for Christians enslaving Christians)

#35

I think the main difference between slavery and serfdom everybody is forgetting is that slaves were sold on slave markets as goods. I didn’t heard of serf selling markets, the lord obtained serfs together with land. I don’t think that serfs were handled as stock in 14 century, lord even was invited on they’re weddings and celebrations. You cant compare Rome where slaves were as inventory in house and medieval Bohemia where serfs could own property and had like 80 free days per year. Also they could work on they’re own land. Could a slave work on his own land?

#36

It depends on how one defines slavery. Slavery as we know it from the Atlantic slave trade was forbidden by the laws of God and man throughout Europe during this period, but there are many forms of slavery apart from chattel. Serfdom varied in severity and ranged from “You or your family may not leave the land until your debt is paid, and by the way there is a new higher interest rate,” to “I am your Lord, I will protect you and you will protect my interests. Leave at your own peril.”

#37

yes in a sense social and behavioral variety in medieval europe lends itself to writing about human motivations and interests. it “writes itself” so to speak. it’s rather sad writers don’t draw inspiration from the real thing more often. they just create simplified and mythological characterizations to fit the prevailing paradigm of pop portrayal of medieval europe.

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