The first man punches him in the face and then seconds later the other man charges him. how can you not see this as him being ganged up on? You make it sound like there were several minutes between each attack in reality there were seconds.
No but you made the comment that he could have “easily” dealt with him with his fists. He got full on punched in the face another punch could have taken him down. Had he started fighting with the shirtless man the other men probably would have jumped in. The odds were very much stacked against him.
Re-watch that video bro that lame ass punch didn’t phase him a bit.
Again re-watch the video there was no fighting on his part at all, he went straight to pulling out his gun and shooting.
It appears he had the gun drawn and behind his back at this point, or at least on the gun ready.
Notice how neither of men who “probably would have jumped in” don’t make any advancements after being made aware of the firearm.
He was rushed by one person at a time, he just as easily could have responded with a right hook then drawn his weapon and warned them he would shoot if they did not leave.
As I have stated a few times before I don’t think he was wrong, I just see where the situation could have been handled better.
[quote=“McWonderBeast, post:3300, topic:21032”]
It appears he had the gun drawn and behind his back at this point, or at least on the gun ready.[/quote]
I was attacked twice when with a classmate (the same guy) and neither of those times did he help me. The fact there is someone next to you doesn’t necessarily mean that he will take part in whatever is coming. That is especially true when you are attacked by a group.
One of those times I was attacked by a single gypsy. When I knocked him down 5 others immediately came to his rescue. I ended up on ground being kicked all around my body including head. Serious injury/death is very easy to happen once you are being kicked in the head. I was just lucky that I ended up only with mouth & nose full of blood and not something serious.
I was 14. I started carrying knife the next day.
You have no way of knowing that. The cautious approach is to expect the very worst. I have never heard anyone say in court “yeah, I wanted to bash his skull in”. It is always “oh I am so sorry, I never meant to hurt him.”
Well this was situation where a single person was approach by a group of people, two of the group were physical and third one likely to join in.
In my country we treat multiple assailants in the very same way as an armed assailant. Both legally and practically. So no, there was nothing cowardly about it, making sure that the other party knows they are bringing fists into gunfight was the best thing to do. The fact that that didn’t stop them actually shows how dangerous they were.
Also, openly racist people tend to be the most dangerous to whom they perceive as “inferior race”. Expecting in such a situation “just a punch” is utterly stupid. Moreover when they are - as you say - drunk and have limited self control.
Well once you are on the ground you are at total mercy of them. And three would get him down quickly, which actually the second attacker just about managed to do alone as we saw.
No, because the first instance judge doesn’t have a crystal ball to foresee what would have happened and the victim has no reason to believe that someone who is already breaking the law against him wants to break it only a little. And as I said, multiple assailants are about the same as attack with weapon.
His gonna feel bad about it anyway. But he didn’t choose the course of action, he only reacted to what he had all the right to perceive as threat of grievous bodily harm.
Well for example me and most of my friends. Maybe it is cultural, but most Czechs don’t turn violent under alcohol. Maybe it is also because we are used to drink much more (especially beer) than other nations, so we would have by now killed each other if we would.
On the other hand once a fight breaks out it often ends quite badly, at least with broken bones if not more.
He was confronted by 3 people. One of them attacked him physically, but all three were present there posing clear danger of immediately joining in. In most such situations, the others join immediately when the defender gets upper hand.
You need to use higher level of force than attacker if you want to be successful with your defense. Not the same, but higher. Unless you are ninja academy graduate, you can’t pull higher level against three people, unless you are armed.
This. Thousand times this.
No, he wasn’t. He was attacked by 3 people, one of whom became physical, and then second became physical. If the video showed one of the three trying to restrain the physical attacker, then you were right. Otherwise the imminent danger of other person to join in makes it a group attack, even if the other two are standing by and waiting what will happen.
Now that is totally fucking spinning what happened.
He was approached by three people ranting racist slants. One of them punched him. He proceeded in drawing his gun and making sure they understand they are bringing 6 fists and 6 legs into a gun fight. It seems that one of the attackers understood that but the other did not and decided to disarm him instead of peacefully walking away.
No, he first showed the gun after the first punch and showed it to them in order to make the stakes too high for the attackers to continue the attack. That is the moment he took the gun to hand.
Come on! He already did that once! He has already drawn the weapon and told them he is ready to defend himself by shooting! How many times is he supposed to do that in order that you are satisfied?
He even showed them he is not a threat to them - instead of pointing the gun in their face he made sure they are aware the gun is there but he doesn’t wish to use it.
Well that is how long DGUs usually take to clear someone out in my country, so no surprise for me there.
One of the most high profile case was when a 60 year old guy was attacked by a group of gypsies (2 out of 3 got physical). Once they got him to the ground, he shot them. One dead on spot, other one shot in torso, the one who didn’t yet join in got off unshot.
It took cops 6 months to clear the guy out and 18 months to put the second attacker behind bars. I hope he learned his lesson. Brother dead, hole in the torso and 2 years behind bars to think about all of it.
(Needless to say that this was followed by a string of gypsy demonstrations and threats of retaliation).
[quote=“snejdarek, post:3302, topic:21032”]
No, because the first instance judge doesn’t have a crystal ball to foresee what would have happened and the victim has no reason to believe that someone who is already breaking the law against him wants to break it only a little. And as I said, multiple assailants are about the same as attack with weapon.
[/quote] so like i said legally speaking he did nothing wrong
[quote=“snejdarek, post:3302, topic:21032”]
He was confronted by 3 people. One of them attacked him physically, but all three were present there posing clear danger of immediately joining in. In most such situations, the others join immediately when the defender gets upper hand.
[/quote] judging by the film the other two did not seem interested in fighting at all after the first blow
[quote=“snejdarek, post:3302, topic:21032”]
. It seems that one of the attackers understood that but the other did not and decided to disarm him instead of peacefully walking away.
[/quote] is it possible the topless man did not see the gun until he charged him ? as if you watch the footage when he shows his weapon the topless man is outside the shop and the black guy is at an angle so it would be hard to see it . i dont know what words were exchanged however .
Now for me you have demonstrated that your gun is your first line of defence and using your hands for you is out of the question which to me is damn right dangerous .
your gun should be your last line of defence and if you can sit there and say you would have zero chance defending yourself with your hands then i think you should put the guns down and learn how to fight with your hands . so that when it comes to defending yourself you have other options than to just draw a gun
Just that all three were verbally abusive prior to the punch and that not only to the victim, but to the peole in the establishment in general. Come on.
That is why I always have a pepper spray as the primary option when I carry gun.
Make no mistake, I won’t use my gun unless I am on floor or the attacker has either weapon or numerical advantage. And numerical advantage they had in this case.
It took me long time after I got gun to get mentally to the point that I realized I will use the gun for self defense if I have to. I was sure from the beginning I would do so to protect those close to me, but wasn’t sure whether I would use it to protect self. Getting a gun is process, both as regards the technical side of its use as well as mental one.
And please, don’t tell me that it is my primary line of defense if you know nothing about me.
ok so he wast a friend that chnages the goal posts right away . this guy was with a friend
[quote=“snejdarek, post:3305, topic:21032”]
Just that all three were verbally abusive prior to the punch and that not only to the victim, but to the peole in the establishment in general. Come on.
[/quote] so punching someone and shouting equals to deadly force to you ? maybe you should surrender your CC permit
Read the account, he was only ever confronted by two individuals who were apart of a group of 5 people. The the shirtless man was the only person to shout anything at the two men sitting at the counter.
The party begins to leave the waffle house after the man takes off his shirt and heads to the parking lot.
Black then apologizes two Hernandez (for his friends behavior) who accepts the handshake, he then tries to do the same with Williams who refuses and then gets punched by black.
Williams then draws his gun 5 seconds after the punch.
Its also mentioned in the account that fields (because he was outside) did not know about the gun.
Watch the video closely and read the actual play by play from the investigation fields had no idea about the gun until he emerged from around the corner Then he attempted to get the gun out of his face because Williams immediately sticks the gun in his face.
Spinning nothing here mate, it appears im the only person who watches the video again before responding and if you cannot bother to read all the facts then this debate is senseless.
OK, so I went on to read the whole report. First thing that struck me was that the excerpts you used above are just transcript of the video. So basically it shows what the cops sees in the video, and his way of viewing the things.
@TheDivineInfidel If I understand it correctly, it was more like 5 on 1 than 3 on 2. If I am not mistaken, Mr. Hernandez does not know Mr. Williams. Thus it seems to be pretty far fetched to call him friend and expect him to come to the rescue.
Then it is probably worth knowing that Mr. Fields, who ended up shot, has been the most verbally confrontational of the whole bunch. So the situation before the gun was drawn was that there were 5 aggressive people who were on their way out. The most aggressive one has left the building, some were by the exit, and one who has been less verbally aggressive than Mr. Fields came and punched Mr. Williams for no apparent reason, other than for the fact that he considered him a “nigger”.
Mr. Williams was punched with no prior warning, fell backwards and hit counter, at which moment he describes he perceived the other people, who were by the exit, started moving back in. At that moment he draw the weapon and chambered a round, loosing one that was already inside (i.e. he was either too shaken to realize he has one inside or he wanted to rack the slide as a clear gesture towards the attackers).
That might be truth, but first of all we don’t know that since he is dead and can’t testify as to what he had known or hadn’t known, secondly he came in to join an unprovoked attack of other member of the group on an innocent person.
Well with hitting the counter with the back of the head it is a small miracle he was still on his feet, not to mention be able to draw a gun and successfully defend himself.
It kind of reminds me on this when all the US newspapers were writing “it is bullshit, nobody dies from falling from 50 cms high stage”. Well yeah, people die when they hit their head, especially when they hit the back of it.
How can you tell that? He go knocked back and hit his head on a chair. Getting punched in the face especially when you’re not expecting is not something you just shrug off easily.
He was being rushed by the shirtless man right after he had been punched in the face. If the shirtless man had got to him do you think he would have given him a hug? Ill bet he would have gotten another one of those punches. He was off balance and moving backwards and he probably thought his buddies were going to join in. He had already taken a punch in the face and another one could have taken him down.
Well according to you in your later posts none of the other men could see the gun.
Yeah we already established he showed his gun to the guy who punched him.
I’m amazed by your mind reading ability.
If theres multiple attackers who want to harm me yeah. I have no fucking clue what they’re going to do. I won’t risk my life for a life of a thug.
not mind reading but body language . hands down by the side looking on . most likely because they knew about the gun .
now the shirtless male that ran in by the looks of things didnt know about the gun he has charged at him to attack him no question but my issue with pulling a gun here is it is only going one of two ways . the gunmen firing or he is disarmed as the attacker has no time to react to the gun like when it was pulled on his 2 friends .
because lets think logically here , when someone point blank puts a gun in your face what would you do ? personally i would go for the gun like my life depends on it because it does .
so its stupid to pull the gun unless you have already made up your mind to use it . which is where i think he should at least attempt to use his hands and get some distance before then brandishing the gun or simply calming the the entire situation down if at all possible
Or maybe he was stupid and drunk and thought he could take on an armed man.
He never stuck a gun in anyone’s face. He showed his gun to the man that punched him. Immediately after that the shirtless man came sprinting in.
The men may have been deterred by the gun but lets say the shirtless man gets the defendant on the ground. There is nothing stopping the other 4 from coming on the fight then.
Lets think about this logically. He had been harassed all night. Punched in the face over a hand shake and his head hit a chair. And then someone comes sprinting at you. He probably thought i can’t take another one of those punches.
??? the guy with no top on was outside when he showed the gun the other two saw it he didnt .
[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3315, topic:21032”]
He never stuck a gun in anyone’s face. He showed his gun to the man that punched him. Immediately after that the shirtless man came sprinting in.
[/quote] and he shot him point blank never gave him a chance.
[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3315, topic:21032”]
Lets think about this logically. He had been harassed all night. Punched in the face over a hand shake and his head hit a chair. And then someone comes sprinting at you. He probably thought i can’t take another one of those punches.
[/quote]took one punch . if what you say is true then he has allowed his emotions to take over is decision making and he shouldn’t be allowed a permit .
if your not mentally stable enough that you cannot put aside any emotions you may feel to someone when making the decision to fire or not then you shouldnt have a permit .
you should be someone that can stay cool and think sensibly about whether a situation is life threatening or not .
not "ohh he hit me and called me a nigger so im going to shoot the cunt "
He came running inside for a reason but since hes dead we’ll never know.
you’re not supposed to give your attackers a chance to hurt you that’s the whole point. You’re bat shit.
It can take once punch to get you on the ground then you’re at their mercy. He had been attacked by two of them in the span of a few seconds.
AND how in the fuck do you know if it wasn’t life threatening or not? There were five of them two of them were already physical. Had he tried to fight them and not use his gun he would have gotten the living shit beat out of him mabye even killed.
use his hands , you act like this was some 12 year old boy he wasnt no small guy he certainly could of used his hands .
[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3317, topic:21032”]
It can take once punch to get you on the ground then you’re at their mercy. He had been attacked by two of them in the span of a few seconds.
[/quote] but he wasnt at their mercy was he the other two look as if they want out of there as quick as possible .
[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3317, topic:21032”]
AND how in the fuck do you know if it wasn’t life threatening or not? There were five of them two of them were already physical. Had he tried to fight them and not use his gun he would have gotten the living shit beat out of him mabye even killed.
[/quote] watch the video . it was no where near life threatening man come on get real.
your entire argument is based on what if’s im mealy looking at that current situation which wasnt life threatening . the black guy had plenty of options he went for the easiest simple as
