Not a fan of the combat

Gameplay
#82

“The long sword combat alone is 2000 animations its allot of work and
they must also create all the algorithms to make it function properly
according to the laws of physics.”

That is @warhorse own problem. They could’ve made the engine different, like many other games did. So if they want to have something unique, I congratulate the effort, but I couldn’t accept shortcuts to the point.

There all many promised features as I said, some of which might not be present in Deliverance. And I won’t dig them up - if you wish, search the forum and you will see for yourself.

#83

Yes it is. And they are dealing with it. I don’t see your point.

But this game is about not being like “many others”.

What shortcuts are you talking about? If anything I’d say that shortcuts is one thing Warhorse doesn’t do.
2000 animations are the proof of it.

You are the one who claims that Warhorse has dumped many promised features, so if you are not willing to present them, why should we believe you?

#84

Why have 2000 animations when 20 will do the trick?!

Why make an unique game if it isn’t working out right as expected?!

You will see that there will be missing features once the game is out. You will see.

No matter how hard they try, @warhorse would have many difficulties to deliver all the promises. And this I am sure of, because they try to make a game too complicated, too non-standard in approach. Wish them luck and cross fingers despite being a pessimist.

So please, stop trolling out here. I think that you always wait for me to express my opinion and then just troll it. OK then, but you couldn’t change it nonetheless, so don’t waste your time.

#85

You made a claim and he’s asking you to prove it. That’s not trolling, that’s calling you out on your BS. So answer his damn question: WHAT FEATURES HAVE BEEN DUMPED?

3 Likes
#86

I believed that to have a conversation the opinion of other participants is needed. But of course I can always talk to myself.

#87

Well there is already lot of games with 20 animations, I kinda like something unique and new :smiley:

And to be honest, game is so far working as expected imo, it is atleast what I expected when I backed it.

Also don´t forget, this is RPG. In proper RPG, your stats have huge impact on result of combat. Its not combat simulator, so its not necessary to have combat completely skill based, thats just not what I expect from RPG game.

2 Likes
#88

They have already heavily altered Cryengine to meet their needs.

What shortcuts are these?

I read every single post in this forum, its apart of my responsibility as a moderator. You claim that there are many promised features being cut the burden of proof is on you.

The issues with pole arms has been known since KS( and is a WIP as the rest of the game), expected things from most people (such as Children) were never promised by the developers.

4 Likes
#89

I already spoke of it, your post is bullshit, not mine! Don’t be a fanboy and live with the fact someone might think different than you!

They dumped polearms, isn’t that enough?!

You couldn’t read maybe or you need heavy repeating to get there?

#90

Well I have to say that childrens are unfortunately out of the game though mentioned at KS…

But yeah, shortcuts? 20 animations would do? Isnt working out as expected? Disagree with all those.

Also you mentioned they made it too complicated, too non-standart… with sortcuts?

They made most beliveable medieval enviroment I ever saw in games or a film. That is not a shortcut. neither is their AI system… or the physical based combat.

2 Likes
#91

I don’t recall them ever explicitly promising polearms were to be a feature in the first place. It was just assumed that they would be among the weapon selections. In fact, as I recall there were only a handful of weapons they described by name, none of which were polearms.

1 Like
#92

Dear @Ambaryerno, how do you ever imagine a medieval realistic RPG without polearms?
They aren’t required to be announced, because they are mandatory.

#93

They never promised polearms. Actually they were upfront from the start that they will not be able to include polearms in the first act.

2 Likes
#94

I wouldn’t call it “upfront from the start”.

They announced their difficulties implementing polearms not so long ago - maybe after update 0.3 I think. As far as I can see it is not from the start, but no matter when and where they decided to maybe let polearms go, this is a huge hit on Deliverance’s combat system and realism. And that’s IMO.

#95

From the beginning they were saying that due to technical difficulties they won’t be able to include polearms at least in the first game. They were saying that they are aware of the importance of polearms and that they hope they will be able to solve the technical problems in later acts, but unfortunately they will not be able to include them from the start.
That is not promising some feature. That is explicitly stating: “We won’t be able to manage this”.

And it was not after update 0.3. I knew that they won’t implement polearms since kickstarter campaign. I think it was mentioned in combat video during the campaign and maybe even during the kickstarter livestream. (I try to find the exact mention of it…)

links I found - on this forum from february 2014 (shortly after the kickstarter campaign):

in reddit AMA(during, shortly after kickstarter, there are more answers in same vein):
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1y5yj1/we_are_warhorse_studios_developers_of_kingdom/cfhn3mw

3 Likes
#96

When I see a thorough and polite reply, I like it! Thanks.
Well, maybe you have a point for the promises- as I said I am not sure when it became clear that we won’t see polearms in Deliverance.
That being said, I still struggle to accept this kind of game without polearms. :frowning:

#97

why do people in video games always confuse speed with skill? also who calls a combat system skilless when they didnt even finish the tutorial. Thats just whining.

#98

More importantly - you can’t teach yourself to fight purely by reading. You have to also drill, spar and fight “in earnest” (or competition would be our modern equivalent) to develop the muscle skills needed to fight well. Being drilled by more experienced fighters is the best way to learn - my parry and counterattacking skills were brought on more in one hour of drilling 1v1 with the instructor than in the previous months of class drilling - their attacks were more powerful (and more controlled/safer) which required better form to safely deflect, and they also could correct errors in hand position and stepping to increase the effectiveness of offline footwork for a master zornhau - one that would take any of a right handed oberhau/zornhau/mittlehau/unterhau and simultaneously strike the opponent in the head with no requirement to modify the technique according to the cut being taken.

While I can read, and have read the manuals that we study from (Meyer 1568/Meyer 1570), plus the course summary notes, it is the hands on experience and verbal instruction and correction that give the effective and rapid acquisition of skills.

#99

Small world Mack

#100

So I’m going to ignore all the talk about what’s a professional and what isn’t and just address the topic of the thread instead as an early backer.

I doubt devs actually read this entire thread as it’s not exactly a condensed well formatted way to ingest player feedback, but here goes nothing!

My background: Competitive FPS, love the combat in Dark Messiah and I’ve been fencing for most my life.

Disclaimer: I know it’s an beta.

The combat feels awkward. I personally am interested in motorcontrol-skill-based games where you can get better by learning quick moves and accuracy and by not being hamstrung by blocking animations and whatnot. I like realism, actually I love it. I love the feeling of skill-based (please interpret this the right way) combat more and I don’t think those two are fundamentally distinct.

My main point:

  • Realism is not an excuse for awkward feeling combat and movement control. There is a reason why this is so hard to do for devs.
  • It’s okay if the devs decide to go whatever way they wish, it’s their game and backing a game is more of an investment.
  • I really really really hope they get the input of people who are experienced in FPS (or similarly movement-skill-based games) when doing the final design (and implementation!) of the combat. This makes or breaks a game (of course you might decide that it’s okay for a game not to sell more than X-amount of copies and say it’s niche… gawd I hate opinion disclaimers on forums so what you say doesn’t get taken out of context).

Why are we even discussing this? I don’t know! In the end all that’s been said has probably been said and the devs either already care about this aspect of the combat and thus will invest enough time to polish it or they don’t, in which case they won’t simply agree to random forum posts.

Peace!

#101

Some of the devs do read the forum… well at least I do, but I was forum rat long before I joined the studio. And I know about a few other people from the studio who read the forum too.

As to your comments on the combat.
Firstly:

I dont really think that the combat would get better by using elemetns from FPS game machanics.
Though it would depend on what exact games you are talking about. But as you meantioned being a competitive FPS player, my thoughts go to CS:GO, Quake, Call of Duty, Battfield, Overwatch and other really competitive games with skillbased mechanics.
And I think that these kind of mechanics do not have a place in our game. Simply because they are incredibly unrealistic.
In those games there is no or little restriction to stamina (which is core mechanic in KCD) and people do incredible jumps and quicksope headshots and other stuff you can think of.
This is something our game should not allow, you cannot be allowed to turn into super hero kind of style killing machine.

you are right.
Realism does not mean awkward gameplay. And we will do everything in our power to not make it awkward.

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