Please dont make it easy to get money

[Miller09]

Bonjour,

So i was thinking about the game and started making a few comparisons to see how they would pair up and i think that kingdom come deliverance is solid and it can become as hard as rock if they don’t make the same mistakes as other gaming franchises.

I want to focus on the money aspect of the game. In the current games that are released that are open world (assassins creed for example) include the money system as they should of course. Now the biggest problem i find in these games is that the money is simply to easy to get a hold of. In games such as assassins creed it is very simple to get money and buy everything in the game. The problem is this makes mini games and side quests useless (especially ones that you bet in for example checkers) My point is if you earn so much money in the main missions it makes mini games pointless and as you can tell in assassins creed it makes the mini games very boring because your not really betting anything.

So what can we do?
Well as i identified before main quests earn the character too much money making the mini games useless soooooo how about you dont earn any money from the main quests and just get an in-game weekly wage instead of money for each mission. Because the character isn’t a king or a rich bastard it would make sense for the player to struggle to earn enough money to buy equipment such as helmets and chain mail. Going back to assassins creed you can buy the best sword within a few hours of playing which i disagree with you should have to complete LOTS of mini games and side missions to be able to afford such a weapon or a nice piece of metal to craft. The mini games and quests should be a risk when playing and should make it a big decision when deciding to bet the money at the pub whilst playing mini games (that were confirmed in video update #6)

So do you guys agree should your character be broke (after all he is only a son of a blacksmith) and should the game make you spend tonnes of hours into mini games and quests to get your desired weapons/clothing

Much regards.

[Freix]

Well, I don’t agree that it should take tonnes of hours to get a good sword. I would let endeless grinding money to the MMORPGs. However, I do agree it shoudn’t be easy either, so I would go with some middle way, taking into consideration that you start as a poor guy. IMO it should be somehow proportional to the game progress.

[Ragnar1]

I disagree with you, Assassin’s Creed games were fine financially.
In my opnion getting money should be fun and not so hard.
For example, in Dark souls 2 it is hard to get money (and generally to play) and I just don’t like this game because of the difficulty.
Hope this game wouldn’t be very hard to play and get money.
Like said above, the difficulty sould be somewhere in the middle.

[MJJ]

Your point is valid that in many open world RPGs you end up walking around with tons of coin with nothing to spend it on. The problem is it is difficult to design a robust economy into a RPG where the money you are earning is consistently being depleted out of the cash supply in exchange for goods and services your character needs to exist and later advance. With KCD the idea of food that expires and supplies for the crafting mini-games can potentially fill this niche. Since sleep is required there will be a market for securing lodging when ranging away from your home (the player won’t always want to travel the map every time the character begins to be exhausted). Accomplishing these things isn’t easy but I think part of the magic of what Warhorse is crafting is a dynamic living world. I have high hopes they will solve the mystery of designing a game economy that remains challenging but not overwhelming.

[213]

i agree. since challenge/overwhelming are subjective, it’s easier to use references that exist. assassins creed is of course one of the worst games in terms of design, so money isn’t even money, it’s more like pocket lint that is valuable. easy to come by and everywhere. kcd has said it wants to be as difficult as dark souls, now, having low income is one way in which you can be as difficult as dark souls without implementing a hundred boss fights with 1000x hp.

i trust money will be plausibly handled in this game.

[Gromon]

I’d like to be able to take my nice new sword from the dead hands of my enemies rather than having to buy a new one Personally I’d like to see the availability of money to be realistic to the time period. You chop some wood for a nice old lady and instead of getting a hundred gold pieces you get a loaf of fresh bread. Monetary reward would be given for missions that would actually give money as a reward and from NPC’s that would actually have spare money.

[specialsymbol]

Completing LOTS of minigames sounds like grinding to me.

I see why people see grinding as an, no, as the example for realism (because that’s what most of us do everyday to earn a living) but I still don’t get it why it has to be included to provide realism.

I want the game to be fun. Obtaining money easily actually is fun (ask anyone who has a great job earning lots of money - more than 80k € a year. I know only three of those, but they all have fun working, where most other people I know don’t. Except this one who has a slow and safe job so he can play games on his notebook all day. But I know only one of those.)

Actually it’s the same in Star Citizen - I see so many threads about how difficult it needs to be to win a fight, how difficult it needs to be to earn money, how complex the economy, how difficult or complex to command a ship, how many taxes or fees there should be that there is constant money drain… struggling may be real life for many people, but it’s not realism. Take flying planes for example, it’s dead simple. Once you got the gist it’s a no-brainer. You never forget the drill, it’s like riding a bicycle. So why make it arbitrarily difficult to provide “realism”? Actually it’s fun in real life without being difficult. All the complex stuff that overwhelms you at the beginning is soon done subconsciously, like shifting in a car.

So, the story, the atmosphere comprised of visuals, sounds and setting - these provide realism. Of course it’s easier to simply make a game hard and straining and then claim it’s realistic, but it’s not the only way to go. It’s also not the best, probably not even a good way.

[Miller09]

i chose the wrong wording when i said ‘‘lots’’ sorry bout that chaps but i dont see the point having money if you can get things too easily. Maybe KCD could use a body looting system aswell for coins

[lui36000]

I would vote for low amounts of money especially in the beginning, i´d love a slow start as a peasant, get your food going, live a normal life, go to the market, enjoy the stimuated world, not much going on here story wise, maybe get some glimps of the main story from afar (town talk, arrests, raids or such) but not like in most other games (alibi fetch quest to get to know the controls), where the starting hour is more of a tutorial until you are the “super hero” but a serious slow start to get to know the scenario.

[213]

making money easily doesn’t make it fun, it makes it boring and unchallenging. same as your star citizens example. easy ship piloting isn’t fun, it’s boring and uninteresting. a game about challenge will always be more fun than a game that rewards you for nothing.

i also agree realism isn’t always difficult. some things you can do easily in real life. but your examples, once again, are quite bad. piloting a plane is actually extremely difficult in combat situations, so it’s actually simplified in most simulators. same concept applies to star citizens i guess.

in kingdom come, combat, wounds, and such are also simplified from real medieval life. the point of realism and challenge is to limit it so the game is still interesting and immersive, not to create real life simulator. but by the same token, if you want to make a game boring and silly, easiest way to do is keep reducing realism like you are hoping.

and also, lets put things into perspective. in this game, if you are making maybe a few coins on a DAILY basis, you probably are already doing better than most medieval common people and soldiers. so again, difficulty is relative.

[mollyfall3]

the probelm with money in rpgs is that of a closed economy, no matter how hard or eay to get, it can be exploited and the player ends up with 50% of the countrys welth in there back pocket. a way to stop this is make gold, sliver or groats weigh some thing , remember no banks, the player can only carry so much, big sword sir ? or carry all you cash? the player could hire other to carry it, and of corse they wont run off, or bury it in stashes, become a lord build a castle hire gaurds. Also you will pay more the more you carry. so gold can be easy to get (to save endless grinding) but players are forced to plan big purchases.

[wkstrm]

How many peasants out there walk around with a pouch full of gold? My guess is none.
If they were, they are no peasants, they are noblemen or merchants.

Making gold in the game I hope will be difficult, getting some silver should be possible but my hopes are you will never cvarry around so much more than a couple of copper pennys because that sounds more reasonable. You’re a blacksmith apprentice, your father WAS the blacksmith, if I understood things right.

Gaining gold in Skyrim for example, even when playing on hardest difficulty is fairly easy, I hope this will be different.

[TexasTig]

I agree fully with @Gromon. Getting a nice sword early in the game should rely on your skill or maybe even luck, whether in combat or in sneaking around and finding one. Obtaining gold shouldn’t necessarily not be fun for the game but you should certainly have to work for it, like doing menial tasks like chopping wood or hunting. A full suit of armor shouldn’t be obtainable until you can achieve some sort of rank or fall into a ton of cash. It might be more fun for some to play a commoner with access to plate armor and a broadsword at the beginning of the game, but for those of us desiring a realistic world (which I’m pretty sure is why most of us are here), obtaining such will be more rewarding with patience and plotting.

[Uncle_Dolan]

Agreed.
Money should be scarce and hard to earn.
And economy should be realistic so that silverware, jewellery, weapons and armor would cost a fortune.
I’d absolutely love that.
Then being a thief might pay out unlike in other games…

[KarlosCV]

There will always be players - as is obvious even in this thread - who prefer to easily sail through their game and those who prefer to fight through it tooth and claw.

The former will complain about everything remotely challenging, claiming it “hinders their progress” and “is not fun”, the latter won’t see any point in spending their time on a game that’s not supposed to be played but rather watched.

I personally hate games that throw moneyz at me left and right (looking at you Larian). I’d love KC to be as stingy as possible. But for commercial reasons I think Warhorse should put some kind of easy difficulty (better called “story mode”) option in the game, so that certain people can play their interactive movie if they wish so.

[Paawool]

I want to have coin when I kill a rat.
NOOO just joking.
But yes definitely a system that the economy is credible
And for the sword, please no good sword loot on a poor Bandit corpse.
To loot a good sword you should have to earn it

[don_quijote]

@Paawool

Maybe also a picnic basket when you kill a wolf.

[red36]

Fundamentally you shouldn’t ask how the player will earn but what they will buy. We see from the video that the player gets a sword from the armory, which maybe he will keep as reward. Looting armor off corpses makes more sense that commissioning if you are worried about your next meal.

Indeed the sword is a good example of rendering the concept that the lord owned ALL and anything people did not make themselves would more likely be bartered for with goods or services than purchased. Using money would be more prevalent in a merchant than a peasant.

Gameplay wise I generally find discrete reward for discrete action to feel much better than killing rats in a field. As a blacksmith and alchemist there are services the player could render to others to get the things they need.

[LordCrash]

I’m all in for a realistic economy. That should of course be part of the vision for a game based on realism.

No way a commoner could earn enough money to buy a good sword or even horse back in these days. Looting corpses? Yeah, and where to sell looted armor? Everybody knows that you probably looted it somewhere and nobody will buy it. They will put you in prison instead for looting the dead (which wasn’t seen as the appropriate action of an honorable man to say the least. And what do you think people will think if you just appear with a lot of cash you stole somewhere? They won’t sell you much but ask a lot of questions instead. People will most likely get envy and they will denounce you at the officials. Or bandits will try to steal from you at night. So even if you have a lot of illegal money there wouldn’t be much ways to spent it, at least not for stuff like armor and swords which would arouse attention.

Earming money? Of course, but only enough to get you sated. And maybe some spare coins to spend on games in the tavern.

Everything “big” (like armor, weapons, horses) shouldn’t just be purchasable. That should be connected to the story and quests. There should be a realistic reason why you have valuable stuff like that. Maybe somebody equips you with that stuff to enable you to work for them. Or something else. Anyway, there should always be a comprehensible reason why you have the things you have. You should be a realistic part of the society and not someone standing outside, following his own rules. That would break a lot of the realistic immersion for me…

[NaBeHobby]

When I think of games that are easy to get money, I think of GTA… Where every quests gives you $10,000, random citizens always carry $500. “But buying things must be expensive, right?” Wrong. Cars can be stolen for free, car parts costs about up to $5,000, prostitutes charge $20, and food is $5.

Please for the love of God, developers, read this forum and do not make it easy to get money in the game.