So do you know much about one-handed axes?
I love them so much 
sorry that its off topic…
You raise some interesting points
Can you tell us a bit about your background, and training? From a lay persons PoV it appears you know what you’re talking about, and I’m assuming this is from both study and experience, so I’m interested to know how much experience you have with historical European combat fencing 
Please find a game with a more realistic combat system please. Your gripes are extremely nit picky and quite frankly a bit absurd. I mean wrestling? You need to realize this is still a game.
Pretty bold claim there. Do you have any evidence to back this up?
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Just out of curiosity, is exclusively aiming for the head a part of German style? I am a total noob in all things sword related but what i read from Guy Windsor’s books, i saw no emphasis on targeting the head, basically any hit you could land on target would be good in unarmored combat.
This is why I was asking about his experience…
He makes some bold claims, I’d like to know how and why he’s an expert.
Great post.
Simplifying this the main differences (in unarmored combat) can be summed up in three points:
- Blade should not slide
- Fights should be shorter (though against unarmored NPC they are kinda short)
- There were no riposts
Problem, as I see it, is that if all three points were implemented it is really all about luck, you missclick once and you are dead. This is of course realistic, but this is still game where in the end you are still the hero and reloading the game several times per fight to finally win is not what I would want to do. (Although defeating very advanced fighter in arena is also a lot about luck right now.)
As to armored fight where you want to go into wrestle as soon as possible and stab the guy with a dagger, that is kinda out of reach for games right now. Though there is a combo where you put the enemy on his back and that, I think, might be a way out of it.
Here are some other links to topics discussing realistic combat:
[Realistic combat, stances, guards, and grappling][1]
[Interesting Documentary about a medieval Fight Book][2]
[Combat System Discussion][3]
I did not read them through, but there are plenty of interesting videos.
Also pinning this for interest.
[1]: Realistic combat, stances, guards, and grappling
[2]: Interesting Documentary about a medieval Fight Book
[3]: Combat System Discussion
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there are ripostes. you click q when the enemy is ready to swing. it’s just not working right all the time. if you’re quick enough with your attack input after you successfully parry, you can thrust at their head in almost one motion.
You misread that, @Elendor is suggesting that during 1403 in medieval Bohemia, there was no such thing as a parrying riposte *riposta style incorporated into the typical German longsword styles.
Instead, it was something that derives from the Italian and French schools some 200 years later
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great thread!
balance between realistic and fun for gaming is very very very important issue. I know that is very hard. but I also very happy because WH at least tried to make realistic game as much as possible.
not until WH remove the word ‘realistic’ in KCD, they should consider this post very deeply and seriously. please.
I can’t wait armored and wrestling combat! hope see it soon!
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The thing is that more than realistic game, Warhorse is going for balance between fun and realism.
My bet is that you will see no wrestling soon. Or at same level as halfswording - only as a part of a combo.
Combat system is still fun though, but of course needs some tweaking and balancing.
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So to sum it up;
1) Stances are well done.
2) a) Strikes are slower and longer than they should be.
This is incredible nitpicking. The fencers actually talked about it, this is done intentionally like that, for the game purposes. There needs to be time for reaction, every sane person must expect the combat in the game to be a lot slower than in reality. Your proposed solution is honestly absurd. Another thing is that quickness of strikes should change based on your skill level (it’s an RPG…), so there must be a range of different speeds, where the lowest ones have to be obviously a lot slower than in reality.
2) b) This is really confusing. You don’t like that after a block you end up in different guard and that you can’t continue in attack after being blocked, if I understand you correctly.
I honestly don’t get this, there is aboslutely nothing unrealistic on ending up in a different position after being blocked. It may not be realistic to end up always in the opposite guard, but I would argue that your proposed solution that sword should end up in the same postion as before the block is actually even less realistic. And I also don’t get your second point, you want the block button to not actually block?
3) You complain that riposte couldn‘t be used in 1400 Bohemia, but you don’t oppose authenticity of that technique.
This seems to me like another nitpicking. It doesn’t even make the technique unrealistic, just not completely accurate fot that era, which seems to me like a non-issue. It is realistic combat technique. And your proposed solution is again incredibly flawed. If you make possible for a player to block, or more specificaly to block with activating bullet time, by common attacks, the combat will change into a random clickfest with unintentionaly blocked attacks and randomly activated bullet time. It would be a total mess. The current riposte mechanic is working well, it is realistic technique and makes sense.
4) Stabbing is well done.
I mean really? That’s it? You call fencers who worked with Warhorse hunderds of hours on the game ignorants without any knowledge of historical fencing just based on 3 seconds long footage of mo-caping and implemented game mechanics (that actually make sense, unlike your proposals), without knowing any context, and your complaints are basicaly just „strikes are too slow and long and I don’t like that blocking is more powerful in game than in real life?" Calling something 100% stage fencing and then coming up with this is really bizzare.
I can only repeat myself, this is nitpicking of the highest level and total ignoring of needs of the game. I also don’t understand why @prokybrambora pinned this topic. OP is calling the fencers working for Warhorse amateurs, by proxy calling Warhorse incompetent to find actual experts on historical combat, this all without providing any relevant evidence to back up his claims. He previously even outright lied about the fencers’ website and lectures they provide, and now it looks like all these claims are endorsed by Warhorse by highlighting the post. Pining something just because you find it interesting is pretty bad forum mismanagement, there is actually already too much pinned threads.
You are confusing realistic game with simulator. This is realistic game, not a simulator, and OP actually didn’t provide anything that would call into question realism of the game, he only pointed out few minor differences that actually make sense gamplay-wise, and suggested trully terrible combat design changes.
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I apprecieate your input on this.
I addmit that by pining this topic it might seem that I agree with OP, but that is not the case.
When this forum started there was a lot of discussion about fencing (which are linked in this topic) and by time they have died.
Now that players can actually see how the combat works and can even try it themselves I felt that there should be visible discussion about this, especially considering the fact that after every update there is a lot of questions and remarks about realism and autenticity by new backers.
But if other moderators ( e.g. @DrFusselpulli , @McWonderBeast , @TobiTobsen ) think that it should be unpinned I will gladly oblige. After all I lack their experience 
.
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“You hit him and the combat is over” - no, it is not. This is a “realistic approach” that games aren’t, and for a good reason probably will not reach ever. Even sometimes HEMA groups go with their sparring until the first hit, because “the enemy is dead” - no, he isn’t. Even better, most of the times he is far more than capable to counterattack, even after a hit he is “practically dead”. Just one word: Nachschlag.
The fight isn’t over when you hit the guy. The fight is over when he is lying on the ground, incapable of any movement.
While I am not a huge fan of straining a point of an eclectic mix of historical fencing styles (there should be a huge number of “vulgar fencers” around, so having people who have barely any idea what to do with a sword is also “historically accurate”) onto a charchter of a blacksmith in Bohemia, just because yaay, we study all that stuff and it’s cool, human physiology applies to all, in every era.
And I doubt there will be people fighting on with horrendous injuries, slowly passing out of blood loss, or - adrenaline down, relalizing, what is happened - screaming, crying, begging for help and crawling around.
Or really, anything but “HP on zero, dropping dead” kind of stuff.
So, at this point requiring Henry to take up a “proper” vom Tag position, when in ~2009 I learned a totally different way how the “roof” should be achieved than in ~2012, or when we still call the horse out of thin air with a whistle, then… well… you know.
Oh, and also one more thing. Fencing guilds weren’t the Salvation Army to train every poor peasant kid just for fun. We know for example that taking an exam of a provost in the London Masters of Defence required a hefty amount of money, and you were bound to invite every master and high-level fencer in a certain area. Fiore himself warns us that this art is the noblemen’s art, and should not be teached to a peasant, practically.
So, there’s that too. We aren’t quite yet in the time period where sport fencing was basically an urban mass sport.
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Im happy to explain my background and will also use this opportunity to make few references to resources as promised.
Many years ago, I was with “historical” fencing group called Erebus (from East Moravia), doing stage performances of late medieval and reneissance combat for quite some time. We did purely stage fencing, i.e. pre-tried, slow, wide and emphasised cuts, with some attractive but wholly inaccurate pommel and “halfswording” techniques mixed in to excite the general public. Then we started to understand that what we were doing had little connection to any real thing. We managed to get one of the few researches and instructors on German langschwert school at that time, Petr Skalický, and tried to learn accurate combat style and techniques, which we planned to use as a spicing for our stage performances. Admittedly, it didn’t work great because from spectators point of view, the duels became too quick, too short, and also extremely dangerous for the swordsmen (because you cannot use any head protection - so the kids gots pretty scared In short, the audience couldn’t appreciate the added value of historical adequacy. Anyway, I think we pushed it as far as we could - if interested, see this video (shot after I left the group), which has some good fencing there not only with longsword, but also with hunting swords, messers, bucklers and polearms. I repeat - this is all still stage fencing miles away from being historically accurate.
However, I wouldn’t consider myself nearly an “expert”. I enjoy reading and translating old german manuals, but I have much less practice than I would love to. An I have been out of trade for nearly 15 years now. I am sure there are more experienced people out there on this forum. Please speak up!
As already pointed out, because the Czech and Slovak republics have only a handful of people who delve in serious research and teaching of accurate German fencing and all are well-known by name and sought after, it is also easy to see that the company Warhorse engaged and mo-capped (allegedly these) do not have connection to any of those instructors. The few swordmasters used to be concentrated in Magisterium under the shepherd Jan Koza, or were kinda solo entrepreneurs (such as Petr Skalický in Moravia) but I hear nowadays there is an array of new groups specialised on reconstructing German fencing, which is good news. There is Digladior under the instruction of Borek Belfín, for example. In Slovakia, there is a great school under the instruction of Martin Fabian and Anton Kohutovič, who have been even admitted among HEMAC - The Historical European Martial Arts Coalition, an elite European club of the few recognised researchers and teachers (there is none from the Czech Rep., btw).
The thing is that you can do accurate fencing either for sport (there is actually a world championship in longsword), or for sheer pleasure. Neither is very lucrative so there is not too many people involved, 99% of fencers do pure stage fencing. In any case, there is plenty of resource available online. The best tradition remains, obviously, in Germany, but for example the american school ARMA has a good site with tons of material in English, including translation of most of the Fechtbücher. You may find some good videos there too. But look for example at a video by the two Slovak gentlemen I mentioned. This is as good as it gets.
As to the accurate reproductions of late medieval and renaissance longswords, there is a fantastic webpage for collectors MyArmoury. Again, getting hand on a good reproduction of a longsword is still problematic in the Czech Republic. Few blacksmith such as Pavel Moc, Luděk Vobořil or Had, to name the famous few, are reasonably good, but still falling behind in technology and understanding. Among world’s top smiths is Peter Johnsson, a Swedish researcher associated with Albion Swords. His replicas and variations are top notch, but expensive as hell.
To end this post with a positive tone, I must admit I absolutely love the longsword models Warhorse designers did for KCD. And I am sure this is just a fraction of what awaits us in the final game. Sheer beauty, you could easily track some models to the preserved original swords as documented by e.g. Edward Oakeshott. Please make also XVIIIb, pleeeease! Despite it being inaccurate for the period… (for those Barons Freixes among you - i am joking…)
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I would agree that any hit you can land counts. However, you would prefer hitting the head because if you don’t, and hit, say - shoulder, arm or side and belly of your opponent, and it is a skilled opponent, you will immediately get your head smashed from his counterstrike. You would target anything else than the head only in some special circumstance (basically, if you can’t reach it for any reason - too far or way over the opponent’s blade requiring impossible rotation etc.)
Head is also the place which is the most “sticking out”, it is the closest target. As are joints (elbows, knees) and feet. Some weapons were specifically designed to target and cause bruises to joints that are sticking out due to the physiology of the combatant (especially the hunting swords, in Czech “tesák”). Quite annoying and hurtful stuff.
Last but not least, not all strikes are strong enough to cause damage in places other then the head because of the low weight of the longsword (trust me, 1.5 kg for 130cm sword is like holding a chopstick). Strikes such as zornhaw, vom tag or zwerchaw involve rotation of the whole body and are pretty devastating. However, most of the “nach” strikes, i.e. 2nd and 3rd and the following strikes can be less so. But even a small touch with the point of the blade is usually enough to incapacitate the opponent if hits the compound bones at the side of the scull (which is in fact THE target for all basic strikes excluding vom Tag or Oberhaw).
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I wanted to reply to your post in detail, but frankly Im a bit repulsed by your offensive manners and personal language - considering we only just met (forum-wise).
Just two remarks:
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your summary misunderstood almost all the points I was making. I don’t blame you, I blame myself. Should have posted references right away to illustrate what I meant. Please refer to the videos and fencing manuals I posted links to above.
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i didn’t say Warhorse are incompetent to find adequate fencing instructor. I said the fencers from that group are clearly not into historically accurate combat because a) content of their webpage - clear focus on stage fencing (even if they mention old masters names and their chief may have studied under Jan Koza), b) no fechtbucher sword master I would know of, c) mo-capture scenes from WH videos and most importantly d) the current combat in Alpha 0.4 is 100% stage combat simulator, there is not a single historically correct fencing technique, which would be also correctly executed. I repeat, not a single one. Get with it.
And you know what? Maybe this is all intentional. Maybe Warhorse wanted it to be stage combat on purpose. For all those reasons we discussed - playability, time for players to react, fun, transparency… you name it. All are legitimate reasons and I don’t have problem with that. It wasn’t my intention to blow up the huge work, creativity and effort WH invested in developing the combat. I was thinking that with good feedback from backers, it could be pushed a little bit more. Overall, the purpose of this forum is to open discussion, so why closing it with offensive attitudes.
And don’t worry. Even if this game ends up a stage combat simulator, it will be the best game on the market in 2016 and I will buy it. Wait - I already have 
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Good point with the “amateur blacksmith” argument 
But from the variants 1) having lame combat throughout the game or 2) having good accurate combat throughout the game, I choose the latter. Requiring Warhorse to implement some gradual improvement in Henry’s fencing style, that would be a bit too much
I may be “offensive”, but at least I don’t repeatedly write misleading posts. First you post that the DRC fencers say explicitely on their websites that they are just stage fencers, which is not true. You post that ingame guards and stabbing is well done, only to write later that “not a single” fencing technique is correcty done. In one post you say that the fencers can’t be good in historical fencing because you don’t know them and because they have no connection to any reputable instructors, only to admit in the next post that their chief actually studied under Koza, an instructor you mentioned previously as one of the reputable ones who the fencers are supposed to have no connection with. And btw it’s Peter Koza, not Jan as you mentioned twice. So yeah, I’m sorry I’m not convinced by your conclusions.
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