Realistic combat, stances, guards, and grappling

In middle ages stances and guards were the basis for good trained combat. Knowing what stance to be in, what stance your enemy was using, the different strikes and defense options each stance provided you, this is what the schools and masters of the era taught and the surviving historical combat manuals show how important stances were as a basis for combat of that time period.

In many games stances don’t even factor in melee combat. The relation of your feet to your hand and the placement of your weapon mean utterly nothing, just hit the button to do this attack or this one.

It would be awesome if you could actually develop your character through learning stances and then learning what attacks/moves go with that stance and giving each stance their weakness/advantages, just like they had in real life.

Another aspect that is often overlooked (in both movies and games) is the importance of grappling.

People have it in their head this vision of people fighting with swords, one guy standing away from the other guy swinging their swords until one guy stabs the other guy. When in truth, just like today with our own modern combat and melee fighting, lot of times those guys would get close, one guy might grab the other guy, one might trip the other, another might go for a disarm and fall, then they’d fight on the ground and grapple.

“wrestling/grappling” was a part of combat of this era, you can find these techniques throughout the historical combat manuals even before the time period this game is set.

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Are you a member of ARMA, SCA or are you just an enthusiast?

I am not a member, just an enthusiast who has studied and read/learned about things over my life, I have a passion for the middle ages and finding out all i can about it (as well as a fancy for Greek mythology, vikings and other historical eras).

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To be honest, the first reason I pledged for Baron, and so get alpha access, was to give as much feedback as possible. As my signature says (if it works… it’s still not clear to me :P) I am an HEMA scholar at Sala d’Arme Achille Marozzo, in Italy. I studied renassaince sword the past year, and now I’m studying sword and round shield. In other words, I’d LOVE to have stances, grapplings, and everything else we could put in. The hard part will be, of course, keep everything in a “manageable” combat system.

But I really hope the devs will keep an eye on this thread and other similar thread about historically accurate fencing.

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Combat should be real, no life bar no weapon bar ( maybe on a hardcore setting ). I think the combat system should force people to take care of weapons ( like stated in other post ), but weapons should break any way through wear and tear, or just by force.

It would be great to see a disarm mechanic were you grab a weapon or shield of a combatant. And it doesn’t have to be the weapon they are using it could be a knife on there person. Other combat skills like kick and punch we have seen in movies, but grabs and throws would be nice with a good counter mechanic.

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I beg to disagree with the creator of this thread. Given that most combatants would wear some kind of protection, if not chainmail or plate armour, at least some gambeson or leather, the usefulness of grappling and wrestling seems rather doubtful, also, if you have a sword or a pike, why would you want to NOT use it? I can picture however some situations where the fight would become close enough that regular fighting techniques would be useless and so the combatants would have to resort to something else; alas, even in such scenario, a dagger of some sort would be extremely more useful than wrestling and grappling, and that’s what they used them for. In any case, I personally think that wrestling and grappling would definitely be very cinematic and increase the sense of brutality and personal involvment, but I wouldn’t call it an essential aspect of medieval warfare, but rather an exceptional circumstance, and as such, don’t see much point in adding it to the game.
EDIT: I forgot to mention one very important thing why wrestling and grappling doesn’e seem likely: it doesn’t go very well with group fighting techniques and it would be very detrimental for command and control of the troops if every soldier fell out of line to fight in the mud with one opponent and leave an empty spot in the formation.

I’m not sure if you’ve bothered to do research into the subject but most historical and medieval societies like ARMA, SCA, HEMA. and even those silly bastards at BOTN agree that grappling is a tried and true method and tactic in combat. It’s also why if you don’t have a shield and you had a one handed sword you wouldn’t pick up a second weapon in your offhand, because grabbing the opponents arm as he over extends, or goes in for a lunge is infinitely more useful than flailing around with two weapons

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Well, speaking of usefulness… Of course using a weapon helps in keeping distance with an opponent, but more often than you think it’s really useful than you think to come to a close distance with him since swords were built to have a cutting edge only on the last part of the blade, towards the point. And believe me, once your enemy is close to you and your sword is not ready to hit the enemy, you are in real trouble :slight_smile: I’ve studied some of these techniques from authors in renassaince’s masters (exactly Achille Marozzo and Anonimo Bolognese) and believe me, they works as hell :smiley:

Here is a manual from Hans Talhoffer, showing grappling/wrestling even when using a pole axe.

Here is another one showing armored longsword fighting with trips/grappling and things as well:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladiatoria/Gladiatoria.htm

Armored longsword combat relied a lot on grapples/tripping and things because of the nature of swords against plate armor. Unlike weapons more suited to countering plate with swords you would have to find ways to thrust it into open areas (visor slit, groin, neck, etc) and the best way of doing this was to disarm your enemy, trip them up, get it to the ground and then slide your sword into one of these areas.

There are a lot of grapplings with two handed sword in Flos Duellatorum as well, although I never studied it. And Achille Marozzo studies a lot of unarmed versus dagger grapplings… And I think I can go on for another while :slight_smile:

The different “fight books” are full of grappling and this include grappling in full armor.

there is no question that this was important skills and it was used… But the question is if it is possible to implement in a game in a fun way.

Couldn’t agree more.

I wonder if we could make something like “HEMA consulting team” to help the devs with these sort of things :smiley:

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I totally agree that stances, guards and grappling should be an important part of any realistic medieval combat game (I belong to a group that studies Fiore dei Liberi style). What I don’t know is, as @Lorthirk and others stated before, how are they going to combine all of that with a variety of weapons and armor, shields and everything. Add statistics and different quality equipment to that, add battles with numerous fighters on screen, add commands and tactics and above all: make it fun to play, easy to learn but difficult to master! It sure is a challenge. You can do it, Warhorse!! :smiley:

Edit: I can imagine a full game that involves only realistic duels, with stances, guards and grappling, some kind of medieval combat simulator, but I don’t think that goes well with a game with a complex story and many other important elements to take care of (immersion, NPC’s, inventories, battles…). But who knows!

I like ideas here. Friend of mine loves sword fighting with empty left hand and it’s truly full of grappling and so on. Warhorse showed us possibilities how to customize body constitution of your character. That should also affect melee fighting (larger opponent against smaller is not necessarily slower, but he can definitely use his weight against his foe).

I wonder if the main character can hurt npc. This injury can lead to the fact that the NPC will limp, drop the sword on the ground, etc. Injuries could be different, this would depend on the site of injury-hand, foot … Maybe it was said, but I found none. Excuse my English, cannot speak english well.

Yes this is a great idea.

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I like the concept of grappling and throwing your opponent and finishing them off on the ground, but I’m not sure how well it would actually work as gameplay.

I really do like the idea of throwing your opponent and finishing them off.

That is the thing where i think grappling would be very useful, because if your opponent is in full armor you would never try to hit him with sword, like it is done in (much to) many games, because that would not do anything except maybe making him angry because you scratched his nice new armor. :wink:
With sword and full armor one only has a chance with the halfsword-Technics, and there is A LOT oft grappling involved…

On the other hand, without armor, i think fights might have looked a little bit different as they look nowadays at historical fencing, where there is a lot of ruthless attacks and grappling, because all are protected and the swords are not sharp and no real danger. With a sharp an pointy sword, the fights might have been a little bit more careful.

@Stances: To make these realistic would also mean quite a lot of work, specially for different weapons. As a smith, you might not be allowed to wear a sword, so one might start with a staff or a “langes messer” (i would love to see these, they had for some times been the weapon of lower social ranks) but also does have completely different stances and quite some grappling Technics.
As mentioned before there are also completely different ways of fighting and stances if you fight unprotected (most of the old fencingbooks show Technices between unprotected fighter, partly for ordeal by battle) but they are completely different if both of them are in full armor.
Implementing all this diffrent stances and technices would be realy great but i do not think that would be possible.

Let’s summon the devs here then!