Accepting suboptimal results

An issues that appears more often than not in games, but stays more in the background.
How do you get players to accept suboptimal results from an encounter, e.g., fight, dialogue, barter session, and prevent them to reload a savegame until they get a perfect win?

Why should a player accept a serious, longterm wound if rewinding the fight just works as well - making more realistic and complicated wound/healing systems useless. The same for legal repercussions for thieving, why should you see it through (other than to watch it once to see the implementation) if you could just repeat it until you don’t get caught.

It’s a generic issue of savegame games. In MMORPGs they just leave out the savegame for obvious reasons, but they usually let you repeat anything you might fail at. And things you can’t repeat when successful have always a perfect outcome no half victories.

So how do you introduce a concept like this without letting the player choose the obvious workaround. On the other hand, is it even wished to have imperfect results? Might be just my personal view, that it would enhance a story flow if not all steps on the way where the perfect choice.

It’s hard to find an ingame motivation for something like this - since it is a worse outcome than the perfect one. Probably would have to be a pure game mechanic, like having a meta savegame associated with a game run, which declares some things as one time or final, e.g. specific encounters, dead NPCs …, and if you reload you won’t get the same, just a similar situation.

…and perhaps the whole idea is overkill, but I think it would increase the tension in certain situations. :slight_smile:

I suppose the problem is you won’t be (or are afraid you won’t be) able to complete the game after serious injury etc. The thing is - it’s up to you whether you load the game or not. I must admit I load it sometimes and try to get better result I would be satisfied with. Frankly, I know doing that is called cheating but I do it nevertheless. There are even games that force you to exploit the save/load mechanism, e.g. Baldur’s Gate series where you must prepare for more difficult fights beforehand or you won’t stand a chance.

The common solution nowadays in terms of game design is of course not bothering player by results of his suboptimal actions. (E.g. the awful but comfortable hit point replenishment - used even in the Deus Ex game because developers supposed player would load the game anyway rather than use / try to find first-aid kits etc.) It would be an astonishing achievement to design a game which will be completable and at the same time challenging regardless the severe injuries or severe punishments after criminal actions gone bad.

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Simple answer: Self regulation.

If you can’t handle consequences in games, meh:/ They are your actions, so don’t blame the developers for your choices, or for giving you an extra option.

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sure, it’s the simplest but also the worst workaround, because you can apply it to almost anything in a game.
Why difficult enemies if you can self regulate the difficulty level yourself…

Besides, you are missing my point, I don’t want to blame anyone for anything, I was discussing how to motivate alternate outcomes even if they aren’t the best.

Best motivation - checkpoints and long loading times. Both has it’s downsides cleerly :smile:

hehe, yeah I was avoiding that kind of motivation. :wink:

Perhaps using only one save and not allowing quitting without saving then?

Because I want a challenge? What kind of person plays a game to make it as easy as possible? The same goes for the crime and punishment thing.

In the end, it will be your choice, character wise, it won’t be beneficial to be arrested, that’s just how it is. It’s up to you whether you want to play by the rules or not:/ I for one, only load back upon death, or a game glitch, why would I want to cheat?

actually the easiest and simplest answer is seen in the oldest of games: no saving. think about mega man, the original. 3 lives, and complete the game, or you start ALL OVER. in this day and age of gaming this is not often used but there are games that have these options. try thief with all of it’s modifiers turned on scary face it’s a nightmare, but doable, and you feel a real sense of accomplishment from doing so. even to a degree games like Demons’ Souls have a similar mechanic that once you’re in the level, and you die, you go all the way back.

i’m thinking that a mix of this is probably the best. my favorite (i can’t remember the game off the top of my head) is the limited number of saves and no checkpoints. if you want to go back a save… well, you might lose way more progress than is worth it so you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. in the end any game that has saves in it, whether limited or not, runs the risk of having the player do this.

if you could combine Rogue-like mechanics in a story driven game, then i think maybe that’s the best. you can never have the same encounter twice, and so loading a previous save would count as a death/respawn scenario and so you don’t get the same encounter, you might not even meet the same person… hell, you might not even have the same quest/scenario/objective when you load.

another piece of the argument you bring up: seeing the multiple outcomes. sometimes i like to reload to see how things might have played out differently, then i go back and reload and take my first choice again. this way i can get a taste for the change and if i don’t want to do that during this playthrough i won’t, but i leave that savepoint so i can come back to and experience the new outcome. most of Bethesda’s games can be abused this way. and it really is an abuse, i know it, and yet it IS part of the game design. I also generally do one playthrough that is always pure and no take backs on my choices. this way i feel like i did have a sense of my character in a certain way before i go back and see the various iterations of how the dialogue/story/missions can play out. Deus Ex was a great example where i would smash and kill everything my first run through, then i would explore the area afterwards and find all the vents and secrets and such, so that my ghost playthrough was a little easier. and even during that 2nd run, things were still being discovered. great level design really is crucial for games like that. With KC:D it’s inevitable players will “abuse” saves, and yet it sounds like the AI systems are dynamic enough that they could use the player reloading as a seed for randomness in the towns. i know for my part i’m going to once again play through genuine the first time, but i do like to explore and flex the limits of the design and story.

oh i just remembered, the livestream showed examples of how the dialogue “branches” but in such a way that you can’t go back and get the same dialogue again, like in Skyrim or Oblivion. so while you could reload and go down a different dialogue path, i’m sure each will have it’s pros/cons toward the story and once you do find the choice you want, you’re locked into that choice. the AI is supposed to remember you and so eventually your choices will matter and there’s no take-backs once you’re happy with your choices.