Archery questions and ideas

SirWarriant: No more about Lars. But some historical curiosities about the full draw

  1. Ancient Greek used short and non-recurve bows, that were held almost horizontally and drawn to the chest. Their “full draw” was thus about 23’’, maybe less. This kind of bow could not be drawn more, the construction would not allow it. They used to shoot in a very contact way, near to the enemy. The siege of Troy, for example, was fought with such bows. Greek eventually replaced these bows with better recurves copied from Persians or Scythians, yet there was a long period when they fought famous battles with such short draw.

  2. Something similar is for American Indian tribes from plains. They used similar non-recurve short bows, that could not be drawn more than those 23’’. They shot on horseback, rode very near to the target, and had high frequency of shots. With such short draw they could bring down a buffalo. Usually with several arrows, but there are some records of “one shot - one kill” buffalo hunting. Everything with these simple, short-draw bows.

  3. Manchu archers (China) anchored string hand behing the ear, and stood sideways to the target. I gave them something like 34’’ - 36’’ draw distance. If they would see contemporary standard 28’’ draw, they would consider it as only partial draw.

Conclusion is that “full draw” is nothing normalized, and can quite change depending on your equipment, type of enemy, and battle strategy.

1 Like

I’m not sure how you got that conclusion at all. Every single example you listed has people using full draw. Pulling the string all the way back is “full draw” no matter what size the bow is.

To say full draw isn’t normalized is simply wrong.

And what is “all the way back”? If you mean that the bow is constructed for some draw length, and that you should use, then you are right. But different historical bows were constructed for different draw lengths, and it could differ very much. You certainly cannot say that each historical bow all around the world and all around the time should be used with standard 28’’ draw. That is what I mean by “not being normalized”.

And also, if I know that my draw length is short, I can take a bow that is designed for it and still be effective (maybe even historical).

Ah, good morning! It’s already spring…? :slight_smile:
Long time no see!

@Kaven: It’s interesting to see how people are still obsessed with the RoF (well, more precisely the RoS), but very rarely, if ever do I see suggestions about the range or the power of the bows. It’s almost as if this became some sort of fashion. Now, don’t get me wrong, I also believe that historically that was an interesting point of bows just as it is nowadays. However, I think that you are mixing up a lot of things regardless of boundary conditions.
The most important is the cultural background. Henry is supposed to be aware of the “western tradition” of archery in the broad terms - well, not even and necessarily that either in the beginning, as he is a blacksmith. I’m more familiar with the steppe bows, but I don’t have any reliable source that states - more importantly, proves - the exquisite shooting rate of the longbowmen. We also don’t talk about two very important aspects of the rate of shooting: How long this elevated rate can be kept up, and how was this practice effect the grand scheme of the battle, like the tactics of the bowmen and resupplying the arrows. Strangely, rather little emphasis is spent on studying logistics when it comes to any battle, really. It’s still a question worth asking that in a half day-long battle what happens after you shot all your arrows in the first two minutes. We know about for example, byzantine sources, but about the clash of two horse archer detachments, naught.

Okay, more tediously:
indian tribes - selfbows aimed at unarmored targets at short distance
ancient egyptians - basic weaponry aimed at limited armor
Kassai Lajos - great sportsman, but admittedly pursuing a career in a sport made up with his own rules. (I quote him: “We don’t follow our ancestors, but we follow what they followed.”) Even if we wanted, we couldn’t do so reliably, since what the resources state about horseback archery is largely a mess. As for my case, we still can’t reliably figure it out whether hungarians in the X. century used thumbrings or not. I also have Kassai’s book right now in front of me, I quote from the section “The bow”: “The average (horse archer at his school) uses 30 lbs bows”, because a stronger bow would hurt one’s body at the practice rate they are doing. Mary Rose says hi! So, again: light bows aimed at unarmored targets at a short distance.
arab and saracen archery - has little to nothing to do with Bohemia.
60 lbs turkish style bow - has little to nothing to do with 130 lbs warbows. Especially with polymer string and injection molded nocks. As experimentally shown, horn and sinew bows don’t really go under 80-90 lbs either, not even early scythian bows. As far as I know, the turks also put a greater emphasis on range, as their competitions show, most notably the “shoot through the Bosporus” one. Mongols did as well, they raised monuments in honor of distance shooters, like for Eshunkei in 1226. I don’t know of any erected for rapid shooting. As for egyptians, Amenhotep II. “founded” a competition by piercing a brass tablet with bow and arrow - again, no rapid shooting.

While I am certainly not stating that the pace of shooting is not an important parameter, putting it above all even at the cost of most other aspects of bow and arrow warfare can easily lead to confirmation bias.
I see you are also familiar with saracen archery. That’s good, it isn’t that good however that everyone seems to cite the “shoot fast”-part, but noone seems to go further. There are also requirements for distance and ballistics as well. These requirements are not the most clear side of the material, but according to Klopsteg, a reasonable assumption is to be able to shoot at a target at a distance of 75 yards / ~70 meters - short ulki - in a way that the arrow will not rise in it’s flight more than 8 feet / ~2,5 meters. In these regards, most people doing “mamluke archery” definitely don’t do mamluke archery. Also, as for accuracy, at this distance the arrows should all group up in a circle with roughly 1 m diameter. The usual speed as far as I know is 3 arrows at a time in the air (releasing the third while the first hits the target), not 3 to 10.
I almost forgot that the “Mamluke handbook” also describes releasing with the thumb finger, which is the method more-or-less used generally in the east, not in the way how the gentleman in the video does it. Scythians also seemed to be familiar with this method, as this statue (~500 BC) from a temple in Aegina shows. By the pattern of your arguments, we could say that Henry should pull his bow with a thumbring. I just showed a historical source for that, after all. :slight_smile:

The data about english archers is indeed “often mentioned”, thereby can easily fall in the “common knowledge” fallacy. I’m still waiting for solid experimental validation. (I often bring up as an example how it was also common and serious knowledge how “bronze armor were useless” after John Coles’ “tests” in 1963) It’s also an issue that while we have some all-over-the-place sources about arrows in the pulling hand, we do not have a lot depicting arrows in the holding hand, not nearly enough to pull conclusions. (László Gyula explicitly writes in his book “Life of the ancient hungarians” - I don’t think it came out in english so I had to translate/butcher the title - that the arrows held by the bow seriously restricts the proper horseback archery. This is by far not an ultimate argument, Kassai himself does exactly that, but I still show it just for the sake of showing that there are counterarguments. Kassai also does not do “military-grade archery”, mostly because of an earlier injury.) In my country, currently the general consensus is that horse archers loaded from quivers, although you can still see some self-proclaimed historians making a christmas tree out of his bow and shooting a good twelve (thin aluminium) arrows in a fast pace. At paint cans. At three meters. Shooting on foot.
I talked about a very arguable expression of “general consensus”, but if you check a number of eastern depictions of the period, be it either about chinese, mongolian, japanese or even egyptian etc., cultures far from each other both in distance and time, you can get the image that the average archer either loaded extremely fast from the quiver, or were not expected to shoot at a very high rate. Or let’s just say that the “boring way” of archery has a metric ton of resources to back it up.

And even at this point, where are we from modeling actual combat scenarios, where the archer is not alone, but a rather frightened, maybe even wounded individual of an army structure? On a battlefield, as a bowman, you are first and foremost expected to incapacitate your foe from a distance of - let’s say - generous 2-300 meters, somewhat less if you are a horse archer. We are in Bohemia in the early XV. century, so chances are your targets will be armoured. In most cases, this is a target you can barely even see. And you are holding a bow that requires 600 Newtons to pull, with arrows weighting almost 80 grams and with a thickness of around 12-13 millimeters. …and your name is Henry, the village blacksmith. Should you shoot out fourty arrows in a minute in this situation, or behave any way a trained mamluke horse archer would ? However, it would be an interesting gameplay mechanics if some form of preparations (for example stabbing arrows in the ground in front of you, which longbowmen apparently did) would reward the player temporarily with elevated RoF, like, I don’t know, 3 seconds per arrow.
And that arrow could still pierce the cranium. After all, that’s the whole point of this archery-thing.

3 Likes

@Earl_Thorn Bravo, GO GO GO!!!

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder544/500x/55173544.jpg

2 Likes

@PrasCo : I aggree with most of you say. Henry’s archery experience will be nearer to Englishmen than to Indians. I don’t want him to do “real speed archery”, I just wanted to know if there will be some skill to speed it up - just a little, and still in European style, which is possible. In the game, the speed seemed too slow to me; you miss twice, and don’t have to shoot again, because battle is almost over. The rest of my writing was just answers to another people.

About archery ethnics - different bows and archery styles were used in different battle tactics. And from the other side, different battle tactics required different bows and archery style. What I want to emphasize is that in history there were many and many different approaches to archery, and each one had its own reasons, and was functional in its environment. I very often hear something like “you have to shoot 130lbs longbow, otherwise you are lame”. And I don’t like it. Sure, English superheavy bows had their place in history, and sure, many other ethnics attained to such bows and similar tactics. But always there were times and areas where totally different approach to archery worked. No one should be criticised because nowadays he chose different style and different “strategy”. That is not about Lars, just generally.

My archery (real, not in KCD) tends to “high speed, low distance”, because I just like it. I respect olympic archers and longbowmen reenactors, but both activities seem boring to me. That’s all. I don’t know how well would I do in a real battle, but I know that I could choose time and place where my approach would be generally accepted battle tactic.

Why are so many people interested in rate of fire? I can’t speak for others, but I have to say that till recently almost noone was interested in it. Tons of archers honed their accuracy and strength, there were tons of books and teachers everywhere, but very few people (in Europe) ever tried to learn for example how to nock fast and without looking. When I discovered instinctive aiming and speed shooting, I immediatelly fell in love with it, and it is what still holds me at archery. It is probably a fashion, but a good one. It returns something to archery that recently was not there.

My 60lbs bow does not try to compete with medieval Turks. It was an example that not only Larse’s 30lbs can be shot fast.

One idea about you last paragraph, shooting to 200 - 300m. Do you think that this strategy would be usable in the KCD battle of Pribyslavitz? As for game, I found only one tactic that is usable there - run around enemies, and shoot them in the back from a very short distance. Even in reality, I don’t think that terrain would allow you to do “English” distance archery. And enemies are scattered, mixed with your men.

Full draw.

I never debated that.

Again i never claimed short bows couldn’t be effective. I was arguing that shooting at half draw is a bad idea, and to my knowledge not a historically accurate practice.