Armor Effectiveness: Realism vs. Balance

Gameplay
#1

So, the LONG history of gaming has established that concessions are made to make all classes in RPGs viable. As a result, armor gets nerfed HARD so lightly/unarmored characters like Rogues can actually feel useful in close-quarters. Ironically, the end-result is that frequently the light/no armor classes end up as better melee fighters than the actual FIGHTER class (who only has his weapons and armor, and generally gets shafted on unique special abilities and attacks). Anyone who’s played games like NWN2, ESPECIALLY online worlds, can attest to how stupidly overpowered Rogue and Mage builds can get compared to the Fighter (and even its Prestige Classes) at higher levels.

In the most recent video, we see the developers dueling a fully-armored swordsman, and it appears that the PC is unarmored. The developers are shown losing horribly. This begs the question:

In Kingdom Come, will armor end up getting nerfed so non-Warriors can take down heavily-armored opponents, or will it TRULY be as huge of an advantage in the game as it was in real life?

#2

Hi!

Kingdom Come Deliverance combat system is based on player skill, so a man naked as the day he was born will be able to kill a fully armoured knight if they’re good enough. The Video they were showing was the NPCs skill and the lack of skill from the team themselves :stuck_out_tongue: as well as the combat system in play.

If both players are of the same skill set, the higher armoured player will have an advantage in how many hits he can take and with what weapon, and the lower obviously less. I’d like to think that things like Plate Armour will be pretty much invulnerable from slashing weapons as they should be, while faltering on penetrating strikes to specific areas, and blunt damage of a mace. While a lightly armoured player in leather will suffer more from slashes and penetrating than blunts, and so forth.

And we won’t be having mages in this game, the styles are a Warrior, thief, & bard if I remember correctly.
If you have anymore questions; feel free to send me a PM or reply to this hoping that I’ll respond.

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#3

Judging from the stat screen it seems to have negatives such as

-stealth (because rattle)
-stamina (because it’s tiring to wear)
(probably) -rest/fatigue because sleeping in armor is a bitch

This game seems to have enough depth to do away with the artificial limitations of plate armor and instead bring in the real downsides of it. So perhaps everything will work out fine.

#4

Yeah, I know there’s no mages, I was just using that as an example of the ridiculousness of many RPGs, where non-warriors end up as better front-line fighters than the actual WARRIOR classes because of how armor gets nerfed.

The main point I was making is there’s a reason in real life why the trend in the Middle Ages was towards heavier (in terms of protection, not weight) and more complete armor, because armor is VERY MUCH that tremendous an advantage, whereas in traditional RPGs full plate is nerfed with things like Max Dex, etc., to allow lightly-armored fighters (Dex Fighters, Rogues, etc.) to match them in front-line combat.

#5

it’s also based on realism, so a naked man going against a fully armored knight isn’t likely to win regardless of skill. though of course it’s possible.

#6

I would also argue that to wear full set of plate armor was probably rather rare except on battlefield.

#7

Hi!

I detest! Sleeping in armour is easy, I’ve done it many times; quite comfortable actually. Other than that, rattle; fine, fatigue? You were conditioned to your armour, you get used to it because you gain more endurance for the weight load.

And nothing wrong with mail, it’s my favourite type of armour. Oh and partial plate is nice too…

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#8

Hi!

I agree with that, just felt explaining a bit, however, if the player skill is good enough he still will (Speaking Multi-player which wont happen for a while / npc tournament ect ect).

You say this, but that’s not true, my Preceptor (Commander of our group) fought a fully plated knight by himself in nothing but braies and still won. Armour isn’t everything, skill is. Armour just helps if your skill isn’t as good as theirs… Now I could recount many tales of him but I won’t for now as he’s a great bloke.

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#9

For how many days on end? Anyways sources seem to note that men-at-arms wearing armor while sleeping is an exception rather than a rule so there must be a reason why they didn’t sleep in armor the whole campaign.

Yes but a guy with the same endurance will outlast the one wearing armor. Provided the lack of armor does not kill him.

#10

Hi! (Warhorse probably gonna hate the amount of replies, but oh well)

It’s nice to get out of it every once in a while, and feel yourself float away. Also you should really wash out your linens and yourself, plus you sweat a bit if sleeping in full armour, padding, and metal are very good at keeping heat in surprisingly :stuck_out_tongue: but it isn’t corny and it depends on weather and facilities available and all that, and personal preference.

A man with the same Skill and endurance, naked man would die. Although endurance could be an issue, but the combat style is meant to reduce movement hence keep endurance and strength; and if the naked man be dancing about all day then just stand still. Sorted.

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#11

hardly :smile:

have a fun week reading that thread.

http://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/t/interesting-documentary-about-a-medieval-fight-book/?source_topic_id=18498

Eh, I still believe it’s something that will not be to comfy, also gotta take in account wear and tear and rust on carbon steel.

Anyways I believe this game has the chance to implement real downsides of armor and not made up -2 dex and such. If you know any you could help contribute.

That’s lewd!

No but really if mobility on foot is needed for hours on end then the lightly armored guy has the advantage. If you have a pair of twins and one is wearing 30 kgs or plate and the other 15 kgs worth of armor than the lighter armored twin will win the marathon. That said most fully armored men would probably try to avoid strenuous activity without reason but it’s a downside nonetheless.

#12

Honestly, I still think that an unarmoured man has little to no hope against an armoured guy, if the latter has only a slight clue about what he is doing. I do not have my sources at hand, but I remember well enough about judicial duels where the combatant (as far as I remember, usually a nobleman) has to face an armored opponent unarmored. Those “duels” were basically executions.
My personal experience based on a pretty large (we are talking about hundreds of people) and diverse group of fencers is also that armour means such a huge advantage that I wouldn’t want to fight with a canned meat in a million years. Of course, we are not talking about hitpoint-system, but we are talking about the fact that if I try to cut the other guy’s hand in a glove, he will ask me no to tickle him, while the other way around it looks like I’m pretty much done with a simple cut on the hand. Maybe not instantly, but in five minutes. Fencing masters also think the same, Fiore dei Liberi himself states - as far as I remember - that he will rather accept three armored duels, than one unarmoured, because without armor you are not permitted to make a mistake at all.
In the above, I’m talking about sword-on-sword combat, but - call me coward - I will not test my luck against an armored man-at-arms even with a lucerne hammer at hand.
Also I think that historically if you find a guy who wears his own armor, then there is a pretty good chance that he knows well enough what he is doing for you not be able to kill him magically. :smiley:
Seriously, even a simple buckler is able to give you a huge advantage over foes with “only” a weapon. It’s (possibly, I never tried myself, but based on reasonable assumptions and data) really hard to cleanly kill a man, more so if he has a weapon, even more if the opponent is in armor.

To clarify all this, I’m not saying it is impossible, but if we will actually apply this in the game, might as well implement mages too, because it is damn sure as hell normal human behavior to say in this situation “Oh my god, it is time to book it out of here!”, and not “Hey, look at me killing this guy with mad skillz!” :smile:

3 Likes
#13

Hi!

I’ve slept in a full suit of armour, padding and all for a weekend at a re-enactment and it wasn’t uncomfy. As for Rust, my armour isn’t the most well kept, but maintained just like any armour would have been in the era (Maybe even more so, rust shows a bad squire and a poor knight), rust is no problem and the rust you’re thinking about, all sharp and completely degraded metal would take years; they would be wearing 14 gauge minimum… And my harness is authentic right down to material (Just not gauge, I’m a re-enactor not a tank, although I have 14 G breastplate, 14 G elbow, knee cops and helm, the rest is around 15 - 16 G), anyway as I said there is no problem sleeping in armour that I’ve found, you just sweat a bit. Bear in mind, the armour is tailored to you and you can perform many acts while in armour, including laying down and sleeping.

Right, you’re just trying to come out on top; but the initial scenario of two identical combatants fighting, one in plate, and one in nothing / light armour; the tin man would win. However, in a prolonged battle, obviously as they’re identical, a prolonged fight of hours would indeed tire the heavily armoured man more, and a Harness of armour weighs around 60Kg mark, not 30Kg, but i get the point. That being said, I am trained in Historical european martial Arts of various forms, including full harness combat, if we don’t have to move we wont to help conserve strength and endurance, but that’s in an actual prolonged combat, a neat thing you can do is lock up your armour, and all the weight get taken off your shoulders which is a nice thing to do when running and fighting about for a few hours, but also think on field you have Watercarriers who give units water and food to keep them going, so that’s a massive boost.

Anyway, again as always feel free to ask more questions or reply.

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#14

you think the unarmored person is going to last for hours? :smile:

on the battlefield. unarmored combatant either is sent in to die and distract or kept in auxiliary roles where they are safe behind the actual fighting.

#15

Hi!

Well said! If you have no armour you can not make a mistake, but if you’re in some armour you can; that’s what it’s there for.

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#16

Seems a bit on the thin end of the scale but the rest I know, I am knowledgeable on the subject, I just try to provide a somewhat balanced view. Of course armor is the best thing on the block otherwise no one would bother with it. However there are downsides to armor too and I am trying to list those to prevent the said arbitrary -x stat changes armor has in other games. As for the rust, I’ve seen it being mentioned in the memoirs of philip de commines and I believe Bayard too. They note that after two years of campaigning the armor has rusted/degraded to a point where they are no longer useful.

I am not just talking about a single fight, I am talking about a whole war/campaign or adventuring as in medieval fantasy.

Are you sure you that’s a Kg weight and not an lbs?

30 Kgs seems to be the established weight in scientific articles and other literature, perhaps shooting up to 35 Kgs to take into that the height of people nowadays is a bit higher.

#17

Hi

![quote=“Dushin, post:16, topic:18498”]
They note that after two years of campaigning the armor has rusted/degraded to a point where they are no longer useful.
[/quote]

Cough Bad squires Cough , and they should look after it better. We’ve used an authentic method of leather, vinegar and sand to clean our kit before, and it works well, alot better than we expected.

No no no, and yes. For re-enacting it’s fine, it can cope with tewksbury and that’s all I need it to do. 14 G is very strong as it is, we’ve done a hard blow with a single handed axe, to a 14 G barbute and only a minor dent. 14 G is used to protect areas of importance such as joints, and head. My breastplate is a lower gauge to protect from thrusting from lances and pikes. and lower danger areas are higher gauge to make it lighter as we’re all lazy :stuck_out_tongue: .

As for weight, maybe I get the two confused, damn you world just use one unit of measurement…

And a war / campaign you have time to rest, so that’s fine, armour will win.

Regards,
Warrior Rose.

#18

We’re talking about the guy who knighted the French king, his squires were most likely fine. If he couldn’t get a squire to take proper care of his armor than no one in Europe could.

Yeah I’ve been going by some numbers provided by Alan Williams in his book “The knight and the blast furnace”.
The average for breast plates seems to hover around 12 gauge, however these are averages and even within individual breastplates the thickness could vary on the left and right side since one side tended to take more hits.

I suggest metric.

60 Kgs seemed like a crushing amount of weight.

#19

Nevermind, got ninja’ed.

But yeah, I’d hope KC would use the ACTUAL disadvantages of armor, instead of the arbitrary ones they throw in for “balance.”

#20

Visibility, stamina and agility are stats listed to be used in this game. I hope Warhorse makes the right choice and doesn’t throw in weird balancing factors too.

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