Armor fitting for archers

[Upsilon]

So I want to discuss types of armor that would be perfect for people who prefer archery. I’m going to list a few that might be in the game. I’ve only seen what little is to show from the beta.

-Breastplate: armor worn over the torso to protect the wearer from injuries.

-Mail (Hauberk): is a type of armour consisting of small metal rings linked together in a pattern to form a mesh.

-Gambeson: is a padded defensive jacket.

-Bascinet: a Medieval European open-faced military helmet.

-Jerkin: is a man’s short close-fitting jacket, made usually of light-coloured leather, and often without sleeves.

-Kettle Hat: is a type of helmet made of steel in the shape of a brimmed hat.

-Mail Coif: a mail hood often used over a hauberk.

You can wear tabards or surcoats which were worn over a harness.

I would like people to share their ideas and recommendations on different armor types.

[Earl_Thorn]

14th century

KCD is set at the turn of the 15th century; 1403 to be exact.

A tunic isn’t a piece of armour, the term is usually used to denote a fairly simple cloth style garment used by both men and woman. Silk and / or embroidered tunics became popular with the nobility and upper class. Regardless of the fabric, they were effectively every day wear for many paired with hoes (breaches / braes etc.) So that’s not going to offer any protection at all…

The image that you’ve provided appears to be what I would describe as a leather jerkin. It would ideally be worn over the top of a gambeson (aketon / arming doublet), which is effectively what the white quilted sleeves form a part of in the image above.

Throw in an open faced bascinet or sallet, perhaps a buckler… and that’s your generic archer armour starter pack

I’m still undecided as to whether I’ll play the smooth talking stealth archer. Or go full chivalric charming knight.

BTW - A maille shirt was referred to as a hauberk.

[Upsilon]

Throw in an open faced bascinet or sallet, perhaps a buckler… and that’s your generic archer armour starter pack

I would use a jerkin and or tunic over mail (hauberk) or gambeson. Bascinet or sallet…meh, I want the challenge myself and use less armor. I would focus more on surviving that way. Hopefully I won’t get a surprise arrow in the face. Therefore I would be forced to wear what you mentioned lol.

A tunic isn’t a piece of armour

Yeah, I know

I’m still undecided as to whether I’ll play the smooth talking stealth archer. Or go full chivalric charming knight.

I’ve always played as the archer in most rpg’s and mmo’s.

[Upsilon]

open faced bascinet or sallet

Something like this

If I could somehow find all the right pieces to look like this

[Earl_Thorn]

This look that you’re after will definitely be achievable in the final game…I mean, it’s pretty much achievable in the beta as is! So I think you’ll be fine.

[Lieste]

Can we please use images of proper C14th/C15th brigandine rather than LARP/film pieces.

Real armour of this period has a Globus chest, made from two lung pieces (or in coat of plates a single breastpiece and a rear opening), with overlapping riveted plates behind the cloth and canvas support around and below it and in the rear. The rivets connect the individual plates to each other as well as binding to the cloth.

A simple breastplate is lighter and cheaper than brigandine.

An archer of limited means would first add an arming cap to his day clothes - with a helmet being the most important first piece of armour. If funds were available to procure more armour then a gambeson would follow. Couters and chains are an inexpensive and light way of protecting the arms from cuts, and I’d take those over hard body armour, and a simple breastplate would be the next item. - the back would be unprotected, and maille is very costly to make - though older examples could be endlessly repaired and recycled and might be affordable.

I’d expect to see everyone in an arming cap or helmet with arming cap, most with gambeson, and most of those with only limited pieces of harness or maille - breastplate and couter most commonly - some few with a pair of plates, and only the wealthiest with full harness, and with a mix of brigandine and white harness in the men at arms and knightly classes.

While men at arms and melee armed troops (spear/polearm/hand weapon and shield) would likely wear heavy gloves or gauntlets for hand protection (though this is a far more difficult technical task than protecting more robust and larger body parts, so effectiveness is limited), archers need manual dexterity and I’d expect more to not wear heavy gloves at all (or only to cover the back of the had/wrist and leave the fingers free in some eastern influences). Their hand protection comes from the use of buckler (which can be worn at the belt) alongside sword/messer/axe/mace/hammer, used to cover the hand when it is sent forward in an attack or defensive action, and to suppress the opponent’s hands when delivering a strike as an alternative.

[DrFusselpulli]

Yes, this will be definetely possible. Well, without the cross on the chest of this archers, but apart from that, you will be able to look like this.

Your picture for the Brigandine from your first post is very off, but we will have a lot of different Brigandines in the game.

[Plattnerlehrling]

I need to get rid of some myths here. One to be precise which is brigandine = lighter than a cuirass. A myth you stumble upon the whole time in context of video games.
Have a look at this one here. That shit is fucking heavy. Real brigandines are HEAVY. It is not a lighter version of plate armour. It is not a cheaper middle class in-between sort of armour. These pieces are heavy as fuck, offer great protection and were definitely not worn to save weight or gain mobility. But to show off. The city of Basel equipped their guards with these exactly for said purpose. Btw. they need to fit as well. It 's not like you can just slip into it. The plates don’t move as much as people think and the circumference around your body can not just be reduced endlessly via straps and buckles until it fits you.
Thank you

[Mundhalai-khan]

Tegilyai:

[Gryphonheart]

The guy on the photo looks really cool. I’m thinking about buying a longbow myself, yet this one looks a bit different from the ones from the local czech bowmasters.

And the clothing is… really well going together. That would be super outfit for the daily life

[PatrickAWilson]

Fantasy has brought about the idea that light armor is somehow as good as heavy. That a lightly armored combatant will make up what he lacks in protection with speed. IMHO no. Just … no. People who wore light armor did so because it was all they could afford, not through a conscious choice.

Chain and brigantine are not light. Chain was the heavy armor of choice for centuries before being supplanted by plate. I have heard arguments that well fitted plate was actually less exhausting because of where the weight fell. Chain puts it all on your shoulders where plate distributes it across the body.

P.S. In fantasy I always play a stealth/sneak character. Absolutely love the game play style. But this is a historical RPG, so I would expect a penalty in combat for wearing light armor.

In reality even light armors weren’t all that light. If you really want to do stealth, wear no armor. Use the weight savings to run away if you get caught

[Upsilon]

Yes it is a historically based rpg, but it’s only a game. It’s not completely accurate or realistic either. IRL yes of course, that makes perfect sense.

I really wanted people to share their thoughts and ideas for different armor types that would fit a certain role in the game. But it is as expected that I get this type of response.

I need change the title and rewrite a few things.

[Tsunamik]

Light armor has its advantages, and yes its even in speed - but not in the way many people think. Light or plate armor has much smaller effect on your ability to dodge and move around battlefield than many people would think, BUT light armor has huge logistics advantage - you can much more easily walk and march in it, work in it, live in it, sleep in it than in heavy armor. Its easy to get on horse in lighter armors, it can prove more difficult in heavier pieces. Full plate armor is not something you would like to spend few days in, so it usually has to be packaged, and carried over by other means than on your body, and then it needs to be fitted on you, so you are combat ready.

[Plattnerlehrling]

I have heard arguments that well fitted plate was actually less exhausting because of where the weight fell. Chain puts it all on your shoulders where plate distributes it across the body.

Actually that 's not quite true. In the time where maille was the dominant armour a lot more thought was given to the shape of the maille than in let’s say the 16th century. I know 16th century maille shirts that really do follow a T-Shirt pattern. Like the modern Indian maille you get. Simple common soldier armour, easy to manufacture, low price, simple shape etc.
In the 13th century for example we see a lot of tight fitting maille in manuscripts. Until recently most reenactors as well as scholars thought that these representations are painted this way because the artist “never saw someone wearing maille” or was “exaggerating”. The thing is though Isak Krogh is writing his bachelor thesis about this exact topic right now. For which he made a reproduction of a maille armour from the Crusader Bible. This is Arne Koets in his maille armour. You can really see his arm muscles, the weight is spread far better over the whole body, and as its so tight a lot of rings could be removed, making the armour lighter.

BUT light armor has huge logistics advantage - you can much more easily walk and march in it, work in it, live in it, sleep in it than in heavy armor. Its easy to get on horse in lighter armors

Sorry but you are writing rubbish. First of all a question for you: "What is light armour?"
Second you don’t buy armour that doesn’t fit you. Just go to the next arms dealer and try his stuff on, until you find something, or get a custom made piece. That 's how it was done. Oh you are not a noble? Well you aren’t a peasant either as these didn’t have armour. A citizen? A mercenary? Well as a citizen you have to own armour per law. The law of your city tells you what you need to own. A mercenary? Maybe your officer will tell you what you should buy to stay alive. – Transition — Marching in armour. If you are a noble you have your armour packed away, except if you expect fighting, then you are wearing your armour, while sitting on your horse. If you are walking, well, why do you think a lot of foot soldiers didn’t wear leg armour? Work in it? Well you only wear armour and work at the same time when you are at war. (That 's what armour is made for, to keep you alive during war) What do you mean by “live in it”? Sleep in it. You can sleep in any kind of armour, doesn’t matter what armour it is. It works but is uncomfortable in any way. Of course it is easier to get on a horse with lighter armour. But the thing is, the armour isn’t made to help you mount your beast, but to keep you alive during fighting. It is of no importance if it stresses you more to get on your horse with a heavier armour, since the fact that the heavier armour will stop the bullets flying at you by far outweighs the 2 seconds you can save during mounting your horse wearing only “light” armour.
Once again please tell me what light armour is supposed to be? An aketon, something like the Stendal and Lübbeck Jackets? Well why do you think everyone who could afford it wore plate armour? Obviously if you are working a cannon you might not want to wear gauntlets that cover you finger, but rather something like fingerless mittens so you can still add powder and do other fancywork. My point here is that people got their armour according to their role during war. A knight who is going to charge at the enemy with a lance will most likely wear a helmet with either an eyeslot or a movable visor. A mounted crossbowman on the other hand might prefer a open faced helmet so he can see his surroundings better. A mercenary fighting on foot that has to march everywhere with his armour, if it is his own and not given to him by his employer, probably won’t have a pair of legs as other parts of the body are more important to protect and good fitting leg armour hard to get / expensive (there are of course exceptions).

[PatrickAWilson]

I hear ya . Like I said, I love to RP a stealth character in fantasy games. - Grey Mouser type swordsman thief. But this is at least a little bit simulation.

So my character is effectively a dispossessed citizen. That makes him a bit better educated than the average peasant but not a nobleman, I want to play my character armorless unless he is going into a battle. Hopefully he will be able to win the odd duel or run away if odds are bad. Not sure how/if that will work.

Anyhow, looking forward to the release as I am sure we all are. Hope performance has been licked. Have to say that my lone trek through heavy woods was more realistic feeling than any game I have ever played.

[Tsunamik]

Bruh, I never wrote that lighter types of armor are better for protection, I simply stated that they might have SOME mobility advantages, just not the same that people usually think of (combat mobility). As light armor I of course think about gambesons and other mostly cloth based protection pieces, as they feel much more like your normal clothes, so it is much more comfortable to live in it, or or combation of cloth with greaves and/or breastplate/chainmail, which would probably be the most common armouring available to common soldier or mercenary.
I did not even wrote that if somebody could afford better armor they wouldn´t wear it, of course that people wear armor that most fits their needs and possibilities, but marching warband or bandits groups might prefer such lighter outfits, as they would not slow them down as much during hit-run attacks - and as these groups usually would not pick a fight they can´t win, they have small need for expensive and hard to maintain plates.
Vice versa, if you are getting ambushed, your nice plates are completely useless unless you already wear them, so this advantage is also present.
Of course these instances doesn´t work for classical fullscale army/army battle, but for warbands and such (which were VERY common) they do have some advantages, which may or may not offset worse overall protection.

It is the same reason why small bucklers were so damn popular instead of classical big shield - its protection was much worse than that of full shield, but you can carry it everyday without weighting you down too much or obstructing your movement. And even the best protection can protect you only if you have it readily available in case of danger - in that case even inferior but available protection like buckler and gambeson will give you much more fighting chance than fullplate or shield hidden in your chest.
In modern days people rather conceal carry handgun to protect themselves, even though assault rifles or shotguns are probably more effective -_-

[Upsilon]

This is one of those conversations that you will both end up disagreeing with one another to the point where it becomes an argument. Can we stay on topic with the thread? Thank you.

[Plattnerlehrling]

actually the opposite is the case I now understand what he was trying to say. There are of course small differences between what counts as light armour and [quote=“Tsunamik, post:19, topic:33515”]
expensive and hard to maintain plates
[/quote]

is not so true as well, simply for the reason that armour around 1400 was quite cheap due to the mass of production and maintaining plate armour only consists of rubbing off a bit rust. But overall I can more or less agree with him.

[Tsunamik]

yeah, I also thought it was just miscommunication Glad we found consensus, I might have worded my first statement too unclearly…

[Upsilon]

Well good, carry on.