Combat becomes trivially easy by mid-game. This MUST be fixed

Gameplay
#128

true, a reduction of XP from “low level” enemies would probably be a good idea as well. but on the other hand you don’t want leveling to become grindy, it’s not a MMO. Hard to say what the final solution should be, but it would be nice to see the rock-paper-scissors system of weapon vs armour type actually matter and keep the fighting interesting when you reach late game (whenever that is).

Maybe some slight difficulty scaling of the main quest missions would we ok in this case, even though I’m usually against that.

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#129

@DrFusselpulli please look at this I love your game so much but this is a really big problem please let WH know

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#130

I expounded a little on my ideas to fix the game’s lack of difficulty and balance in a recent mod post. I’ll copy and paste that here… The mod in question increases NPC health across the board, which is a brutish and crude (if effective) way of making the game more difficult while also introducing new problems. Anyway, here it is.

The ultimate solution to balance issues is deceptively simple – rein in damage scaling so that weapon damage slowly increases with time and doesn’t completely overpower armor values. I don’t believe a simple health increase is an elegant way to go about maintaining the game’s sense of challenge throughout a playthrough, even if it does make combat considerably more fun and challenging. Right now, we’re at a point where enemies are more challenging, but there’s not much of a noticeable difference between well-armored and unarmored opponents in terms of how much damage they can sustain. That’s a big problem since it relegates the role of enemy armor to purely aesthetic vendor material. A bandit wearing a linen shirt shouldn’t take as many blows as an enemy wearing a good cuirass or brigadine.

To make combat feel more authentic and challenging against well-equipped foes, what we really need is a significant balance adjustment, if not an outright overhaul, to both weapon damage and armor values so that certain weapons – ESPECIALLY swords – deal substantially less damage to armored opponents. Armor in the game has three defense types: Piercing, Slashing, and Blunt. Armor such as plate provides excellent protection against slashing and piercing attacks, but is less effective against blunt attacks (for example, from maces). Therefore, if it’s possible to increase certain armor values, such as the Slash defense of a breastplate, we could balance armor so that it provides much more defense against weapons that would realistically be ineffective against it (such as swords).

These adjustments could be made in tandem with an overall reduction in weapon damage and damage scaling to ensure that perks and overall player damage doesn’t overpower armor in the end (because let’s face it – the difference in Henry’s damage from level 1 to level 15 is ridiculous, and that’s where a lot of these balance issues are stemming from). If we can stabilize weapon damage scaling and fix some of the awful perks, such as Heavy Swing, it would be far easier to control the game’s difficulty curve.

Obviously, since this is a video game, swords shouldn’t be totally ineffective against armored opponents. Swords should be able to kill plate-wearing enemies – it should just take a lot more hits.

However, there’s one big problem associated with weapon and armor damage value tampering… certain weapon types could easily become completely obsolete. I love swords, even though I realize that they’re less than ideal for killing armored opponents. This is where combination attacks ideally come into play. Certain techniques, such as stabbing less protected joints or an opponent’s visor, compensate for the fact that swords do very little damage to armor. Right now, we have numerous combination attacks that try to approximate this, such as longsword visor thrusts (Vavra even talked about it in a video).

Therefore, an ideal way to address this issue would be to ensure that armor-defeating sword techniques “bypass” enemy armor by dealing substantially more damage than normal. It would require more skill than simply using a mace to bash an opponent’s helmet in, but it would at least make swords viable options as opposed to maces being the default “best” weapon type.

Overall, I think there’s a whole lot that can be done to both weapon damage and armor values – SPECIFIC armor values, especially, such as Slash and Pierce defense – that make the game feel more coherent and logical. This would require a considerable amount of trial and error, and I don’t know if specific weapon damage or armor defense categories such as Slash and Pierce can be modified, but such an overhaul could fix the game’s difficulty if it’s done in a smart, sensible way.

Above all else, armor simply needs to play a much, much bigger role in how tough enemies are to kill.

4 Likes
#131

I didn’t try to get your messages flagged lmfao

Paranoid ass

#132

What ever then. Why the hell did you come at me in the first place? I never said I want the game easy. I just don’t want to beat on a meat bag extra to pretend it was any more difficult. I would feel much better if certain NPC had instant kill combos then needing to hit enemies 40 times. And the whole realism thing people bring up annoyed me. But why come at me. Quit playing dodgeball, hiding behind insults and answer the question and stop being a damn coward.

#133

The battle took me all of 5 minutes

You must have been taking your sweet time.

1 Like
#134

I love the game, the game gets a very good rating from me, it’s slowly becoming my favorite RPG ever. They get so many details so right and i love the history based story. I can sit here for a long time saying everything I love about the game…

But this, I totally agree, is a fairly large problem. I’m lvl 20 main level now, and lvl 20 in sword, as well as 18 str and 15-16 in all other attributes. The game is a complete cakewalk for me now and I’m just glad that I’ve already beaten the game lol.

Sir Arthur Dayne is not a real character, so the ability to fight off 5-6 cubans without taking much damage should not be possible.

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#135

@Burgundy if you get irritated easily when people bring up Realism at any point in time for this game… This is not the game for you, sorry.

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#136

Are we talking about the same game? The game where Henry matches a mercenary captain after a couple days. A game where Henry learns to read in a couple days. A game where a magical merchant guild knows when a fart has been bottled illegally in the woods and you need it to cool off because the Magic merchant guild is omniscient. I’m sorry too. Sorry you believed the hype. It’s more realistic than Skyrim sure… But overall? Ha, haha, hahaha no. It needs SERIOUS work. It has a more realistic world based in history I appreciate.

#137

@Burgundy I never said simulator, I said Realism.

A realistic game doesn’t have to be a simulator. A couple days to learn to read at an older age? Probably not possible, but having a character in a game who’s the son of a peasant that can’t read in the first place by his early adult age? Much more ‘realistic’.

Now just to be clear so that we’re still on topic, are you arguing that the game’s combat is too trivial? Or are you saying that it’s too hard? Because realism could be argued against both opinions.

The point of the post is that the game gets much too easy mid-game and after, and for some it happens even before mid-game.

I argue that it’s too easy from a perspective of not wanting games to be too easy, and I also argue that being able to slaughter several to a dozen enemies with no help is completely ludicrous.

I love the game and it’s combat, but it has gotten too trivial.

#138

You’re making straight up excuses. You cry realism, say not simulator. Nah you’re just making pointless semantics.

I’m arguing people crying realism and Henry improving too fast yet he literally improves in the story in no time to beat Runt. He learns to read like a prodigy. People want to argue realism then sit there and ignore a completely unrealistic mechanic with stolen items.

I argue people talking about realistic combat know nothing of realistic combat. Why? Because as I have stated numerous times that harness grappling which is quite important when fighting an opponent IN FULL HARNESS is a non factor.

So yes. Telling me that realism BS annoys me. Video games will always be video games. I understand wanting them more difficult but don’t preach to me about pseudo realism.

#139

I am compiling my own ideas on how to fix this. So far, I have the following:

Set skill levels for types of NPCs:

weapons and defence skill:
0-5 Peasants and those unarmoured bandits that sometimes attack you. Their lack of armour and proficiency with a weapon should make them easy pickings for well armoured guys with proper training.

3-7 Town guards and some soldiers. Their equipement is better and they have training. this is what I would consider a normal skill level. Henry’s skill gain from practising with wooden weapons against Bernard should also stop at this level. There is only so much skill you can gain by sparring with wooden weapons. You should unlock the basics and you become a proficient fighter.

5-15 Regular soldiers: They have a wider range showing the difference between different levels of skill. younger more inexperienced fighters should have lower skills, more experienced fighters should have better skills and be harder to fight. Their equipment should be gambeson with mail and an outter jacket or even light brigandine. Cumans in this range equipped with padding, maille and some with light lamelar armour on top with some extra arm and leg protection

10-20 Professional fully trained soldiers (including Cumans), knights : These are the full time soldiers who survived and who make war their business. Cumans are generally less armoured (though a gambeson and maille armoured enemy should by no means die to a couple of sword strokes) and their captains with lamelar on top of maille should be tough as nails. European armed soldiers on this tier are usually in partial plate (heavy maille hauberks and some plate or maybe a brigandine) or in full plate, in short, several layers of proper armour. Their skill is second to none and they are dangerous opponents always. Henry should have a lot of trouble dealing with them. They could pose the threat that high level bandit camps do (the ones you get from the Bailiff at Sasau).

Make armour effective against slashing and piercing weapons:
Honestly, a longsword should be very ineffective against armour and against a properly armoured opponent, arrows should do next to no damage regardless of the bow unless you hit a weak spot.

Remove or severely reduce the influence of strength in the damage output:
Strength should have very little impact on actual damage. Strength should mainly influence the amount of stamina spent to conduct an attack. Part of the problem is that a high weapon skill gives you an eternity to parry/perfect block and the strength makes enemy blocks ineffective to a fault. If you ever did any kind of weapon based sport you don’t put all your strength in your blows otherwise you will tire super fast and you are not accurate enough. Damage should come from mainly from the weapon not from the strength.

We should not be able to attain the max skill level on weapons:
henry should be capped at level 15 weapon proficiency points 10 for bows. That is 15 for all the weapons. If we focus on one weapon we should be able to become very good at it though never max level. If we split our expertise through different weapons we should be average on 2 or on the low scale on 3. We are effectively trading adaptability for expertise. We are the son of a blacksmith so professional soldiers should always have an edge. Sure we have private lessons from hours on end but that doesn’t remove the need of years of experience. Some of the people we fight would have been training since they were 10 or younger. That is 10 years of experience we don’t have.

Reduce the effect that weapon skill has on time we have to parry/master strike. I think there is a need for some stat based combat but high level it should be mainly skill. As it is now, from mid game onwards it is purely stat based.

I also think that an soldier with a defence skill of 5 should be able to efficiently block another with an offensive skill of 15. Defence is always easier and it would make combos more relevant. In order to break the opponent’s defence you need to use combos otherwise he can just block until he gets a parry or a master stroke out.

Taking the first battle as an example, the first wave of lightly armed and more disorganised bandits should be easy for a well armoured and skilled Henry, the Cumans should be mostly better than us and hard to take down. They are professional soldiers after all with the last layer of defenders being kights or equivalent with high end gear and able to take a beating and dish out a beating too! I have no problems with some of these enemies being too good for Henry to take on.

These changes would make combat more based on our skill instead of stats. If you practice with Bernard enough you should improve your reflexes and skill more than your stats. A hard level cap on wooden weapons means that you need to risk and train using full steel weapons which causes risk of injury to you and should also give you much less XP. Tiering the enemies like this effectively means that you risk getting killed by enemies you just can’t beat fairly. Increasing their defence and taking out strength from damage means that they won’t stagger as much from your attacks making it harder for us to kill them making combat longer.

Honestly the most fun I had was with the Cuman camps and last tier bandit camps. I actually had to think tactically and how not to get swarmed so I wouldn’t die. Cumans were less effective on account of using one handed sabres but the last tier bandits forced me once or twice to do a strategic retreat or get killed. And the battles lasted a while. I felt that my sword was ineffective as the enemies could block my blows without staggering and actually counterattack effectively.

I power levelled by accident because I felt my skills were lagging behind Henry’s so I went to practice with Bernard for a couple of hours and the outcome was that I left as a God of War and ruined combat. I thought this was not possible. That having a God tiered character was impossible in this game… I killed runt in one blow… One blow… This Nemesis of mine was down in one blow. It took the climax of the battle away due to the fact that he was extremely weak compared to me. My attacks hit harder, faster and the parry slow motion took so long I had time to think!

After this is fixed, economy should follow with money being harder to acquire. As it is, I have more than 40k groshen and I buy horses, armour and everything because honestly I have nowhere else to spend it. Merchants should not buy our 10 suits of armour all the time. The towns in this game are quite small. How many suits of armour would they sell a month? Further, Cuman armour should probably be worth very little as people would not buy it for obvious reasons. Maybe make it so we can only sell it for the steel? So they can make other armour or tools? So maybe we can always sell to blacksmiths at a huge loss of profit because they are paying by the Kg of steel instead of a finished product?

Anyway, I have more to say about the issue but for now this should suffice. Anyway, these are just my opinions so feel free to disagree.

6 Likes
#140

That’s the thing. I didn’t come at you. You mistook me for someone else, when in fact I actually agree with you about the AI needing work. And I never said anything about realism.

#141

Can you two take it to private message? This thread was getting back on track and having valuable discussion that will provide the devs some strong feedback on potential improvements.

Now it has regressed to bickering again. Respectfully, please stop.

7 Likes
#142

I agree with pretty much all of this. Before release I was actually wondering if Henry would basically cap at level ~10, or as a middling soldier using guile and peasant tricks to get through missions, while being totally outclassed by any knight or decent career soldiers.

I think the above list you created will be implemented by mods, but the big challenge in fixing this game’s combat system will be to create one that makes fighting multiple opponents fun while making it difficult to fight a skilled opponent 1v1.

#143

“that was a ~2m long axe that hit me with full force in the head.”

Damn dude… you are brave!!

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#144

thank you, just roast each other in PMs cause I try to read your points but I have to read through a chapter of insults to even get there. Its just not productive in that sense - I want no part of these flame wars

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#145

I already reported this to our Design departement :slight_smile:

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#146

I assume you’re referring to the current imbalance in combat? Just want to confirm so I can get goosebumps of excitement.

#147

Do you by chance have an opinion on the topic - or have you heard any word on the devs opinion?

I’d be interested to know.

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