Combat "Discussion" - Dev Spotted


#181

Please Warhorse implement takedowns/instantkill animations. That current animations when henry attacks a unarmored NPC break all immersion. And also please add finish moves. Much people demand it and this have a serious reason. A real fight ends in 1000 diffrent ways. The feedback to player would be more visible. And last but not least it would a nice way to show unconvential moves,blood and gore, and smooth animations in a easy way.


#182

I agree KC:D needs some spectacular but realistic killmoves after a fight.


#183

Hi guys. Do you also think that Sword fighting is little bit jerky on Keyboard and mouse? I find it almost impossible to have correct timing and direction. Also I have not managed to make a combo. Even the masic one. With Up + Right + Left Down.

Am I just unskillful, or do you feel it too? I am just asking for opinion :slight_smile:


#184

Easiest combos start with stab, so try pommel strike (stab, right, bottom left). In my experience, starting EVERY combo with stab and then continuing with rest of combo yields the best results (I have now did all of them atleast once on purpose :slight_smile:
But I surely use controller, and agree that mouse control is really quite wonky…


#185

Same here. I spent some time in the fight-training area near Samopše in both alfa and beta. And I have NOT managed to do a single combo. My brother was more successful - he’s done one combo properly. (playing with mouse and keyboard)


#186

That is the biggest problem. Because in my opinion, most of the PC players use Keyboard and Mouse. Not controller.


#187

I have 84 hours in game, mostly fighting since it was added and I still have problems with combos. Any of them (K+M).


#188

Will have to try them with mouse, as I currently have no problem with controller…

On mouse the biggest problem seems to be the wonky camera, messing up your zone selection I guess, and also slow reaction speed… Makes me wonder how they will optimize that to be honest


#189

Yes. For me it is imposible to make a combo. I managed once by accident.


#190

You know what would be awesome - sandbox game like M&B and fighting system like KCD.
I’d pay 100 easy for that.

Maybe one day…


#191

I’d just like to throw my 2 cents in on the combat in this game after 15 hours play time. Sorry if my points have been raised before by others - I haven’t read many posts here.

Duels

I think the combat system works really well for duels. It couldn’t really be more realistic, in my opinion. I’m no HEMA expert nor do I participate in HEMA, but I do spectate it fairly often. The wards the NPCs use and the attacks etc all seem really great for a duel. The enemy attacks cautiously and it all looks and feels pretty convincing IMO. Kudos to the devs for achieving the most realistic dueling experience I’ve ever seen in a game. It’s really, really good. Not just for us and the game, but also for this industry.

Fights against multiple enemies

Combat against multiple combatants seems to be the same as in a duel. The enemies advance slowly and cautiously all as though they were trying to duel me one on one. It would be better if perhaps the enemy that I’m targeting/attacking behaved in this way, while the others moved faster with flankling/encircling me as their priority, while attacking me more recklessly. They currently make no effort to flank. I’d expect them to be running/sprinting into position at least, instead of all approaching me directly from the front. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an enemy run yet.

I feel like this is more of an AI issue rather than a combat one.


#192

I agree with your points. Several fencing treatises that appear in the Italian Renaissance provide some techniques for ‘battle-like’ situations e.g. cuts which parry a multi-opponent attack, but insist that the same principles and techniques of fencing as taught for the duel also apply to the battlefield. What changes is the tactical application of those principles and techniques.

I agree with you that the issue is the enemy AI - in an open environment, they should be trying to flank the player.


#193

Well, I continue to try out this combat system and I like what I see, but of late there is one IMO small error regarding one of the ‘single time’ defences which I find to be jarring. (A ‘single time’ defence is a defence where one both parries and ripostes at the same time, that is two actions in one fencing time. This is opposed to the normal parry and risposte, where the riposte follows shortly after the parry.)

The technique in question is the single time defence against an overhead blow when using the shortsword with or without the shield. With the shield it is valid, without the shield it is not. Note: IMO, All the other single time defences I have seen so far, are perfectly valid from a HEMA perspective.

So the technique (with the shield) is this. The attacker does an overhead downright blow (a fendente) aimed at the head and the defender does two things at the same time in response:

  1. He/she raises his/her shield which catches the attacking blow, blocking it.
  2. The defender thrusts at the attacker with his/her sword hand in the palm-down position (seconde) and stabs the attacker in the chest.
    With a shield, this single time defence is not only valid but pretty damn effective both in KCD and in RL. The attacker is creating a threat with which the defender must deal. The defender neutralises the threat with his/her shield and counter-attacks the attacker at the same time with her/her sword, so that the attacker has no opportunity to defend against the counter-attack.

The problem is that for shortsword without a shield the same is technique is used, even though there is no the shield to parry the incoming blow. This is an issue, as the opponents sword is in motion and within range (distance), presenting a threat. The defender must deal with it or be struck. The defender’s sword is not in a position to offer any protection because the counter-attack is a thrust in seconde which means the sword only offers some protection against attacks coming from defender right-side (outside).

In RL, the result would be a double hit: The defender cops a blow to the head while the attacker gets a sword in his chest. Even if the defender get his/her thrust in slightly ahead of the attacker’s cut, it will not stop the cut because the attacker’s sword is at the point of no return. This is bad fencing as it breaks fencing rule number 1: Don’t get hit!. In KCD, however, the attacker’s sword mysteriously disappears and the defender’s thrust lands.

In RL, this technique could work in its current form, if the defender’s weapon outranges the opponent’s weapon. However, as we are talking here about shortswords, the only thing the shortsword outranges is the mace and axe. Against another shortsword or a longsword, the shortsword is stuffed.

Might I suggest a slight modification which will make the technique valid. Instead of thrusting in seconde (sword hand palm-down), get the defender to move his sword-hand into a thumb-down position (prima) at head-level and then do an imbroccata thrust to the chest. Prima points the front (true) edge of the sword upwards and angles the sword slightly right to left. With this guard, the defender can catch and parry overhead blows on the strong part of the sword blade near the hilt (the forte), while doing thrust. I would also throw in a diagonal step/pass forward and right, which would better facilitate the parry by the sword and get the defender off line the attacker’s downright blow. In fact in RL, this step/pass sometimes dodges the blow entirely.

All this said, I do note that his is an animation issue, and changing mocap animations is not cheap. I also believe it is a tribute to the hard and diligent work done by Warhorse and their dedication to realism that out of all the numerous techniques presented in KCD’s combat system, this is the only one with which I have found an issue.

Keep up the good work, Warhorse!


#194

I like the idea of finish moves. The current combat is the most realistic sword combat ever but it looks too basic compare with a real fight. I hope that the DEVs solve that problem with complex animated finish moves.

I also hope the immersion how henry is moving will be improved. It would be nice to have a animation for situations like running down, running/climbing up, turn during run, or protected hands during henry is crossing a scrub. I know it should not be a simulator but even action games use that animations to increase the immersion.


#195

Patience and time and you get master of it :wink: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzQmAyspUNA


#196

Agreed! IMHO the combat system as it is is perfectly usable and working even against multiple opponents, I just hate the lock-on…but still having fun :slight_smile:


#197

I’m starting to believe there are some hidden combos as well. I’ve managed a few times to strike with some kind of triple pommel strike when clinched with my opponent.

The ‘‘very advanced’’ fighter does it all the time too in the arena,


#198

In my opinion kingdom come deliverance has the most realistic sword combat system in video games.

BUT it is improveable.

The animations need some polishing. Looks not as fluid as it should.
The current clinch is very unrealistic. Why are the devs dont substitute the current “sowrd-holding” animation with diffrent realistic clinch animations or scripted sequences of halfswording (attack…block/dodge…). The effect to the gameplay would be the same and the effort would be not much bigger (few diffrent animations).The fight would appear faster and more realistic.

Where are the dozens of joint locks, dirty kicks in the genitals, the strangleholds, throwing techniqes (only one after combo),the halfswording elements (one after combo) fastdagger attacks, and clouts.? The combat system seems very clean and more like a duell… A pommelstrike after a performed combo is fine but not enough to create a illusion of real fight of live or death. We should able to pierce somebody, to strangle him or cut his throat or make a mordschlag.

I understand that it is impossible to implement all known techniques real time in the combat system. It could also be difficult to create a good feedback in realtime. But please implement it at least in something like a first person killing sequence in the end of a fight.
If you not able to show this stuff immersive enough then use slow motion in that finish animations. The illusion of a realistic fight need a huge varriety of moves and outcomes.

Another point are kills in a fast way. A stealth player should be able to do takedowns (with diffrent animations) from all directions if the enemy is surprised.


#199

I agree with much of what is said here in this post by babelfisch. First let me explain a few caveats about my own opinion. I am a fairly old fart (have lived a good bit more than a half century) and I know very well I will never be one of the greats at KCD combat, as I will never match reactions with some of the young, twitchy-finger types! I accept this fact without reservation. I am also plunging into entirely unfamiliar territory, having played games since 2002, but those games all had very similar or the same controls, and all were very different than KCD. I have moved with my mouse exclusively for over a decade, so having to go back to using WASD is, so far, frustrating as hades. Add to this the fact that I am a hunt-and-peck typist with no “native control” over the keyboard (I usually have to look to get on the right keys), and the idea of adding Q to block and F to kick turns into a finger-twisting mess for me most times. Now with all of this said, here is the big surprise:

I actually like the combat in KCD, and I view it more as a challenge than anything else right now. I know it will take a lot of practice and hard work for me to get better at it, but that is okay, as long as the time invested will eventually allow me to be a fairly good combatant who can handle the unavoidable fights in KCD and not stop me from doing what I need to do within the story line. As long as that is true, I will manage. If after a few weeks of practice and hard work, it still doesn’t allow me to do what I need to do in the game–if it continues to frustrate me after I have made an honest and thorough attempt to master it–well, that is something different entirely. If the combat is only for those with speedy fingers and superior reflexes, then the game will certainly be very limited in its player base.

So, here are a few things I think would make the combat much better for those like me:

One of my biggest complaints is with the “rose” that allows directional selection–it is a bit too small, and I feel like my mouse is connected to it by a long elastic thread–I move my mouse to change direction and nothing happens, but if I move it a bit more, everything happens all at once–it runs past my choice and zips around through a few different positions. (Aside–I have felt this same “elastic band” connection between controls in other areas of the game as well, especially when trying to control my old glue-bucket of a horse!)

The tutorial definitely rushes one through the directions, and gives little time to read and study the maneuvers or whatnot. It would be awesome to have a “training dummy” that we could hit and practice with–something that would let us go as slow as we needed to in order to try the rose targeting, etc. in isolation, so as to learn each part (and maybe gain a bit of hand-eye coordination) one at a time. A place where the targeting would work on the dummy just like a fight, and we could train inexperienced hands in the movements necessary, one step at a time. For those like me who have not played all the other medieval sword type games and have played all games only with mouse and keyboard (and never played consoles ever) it would be helpful!

I would love to see Henry have a bit more stamina too–or perhaps better regeneration of stamina–or a bit of both. maybe once I am better at this, it may be okay, but as someone who makes mistakes and wastes moves sometimes, it seems stamina stays near empty way too much of the time.

There are other things that may not be traditional combat, but are part of conflict, such as something I read about sneaking up on people and being able to smother them, or other non-traditional things that do not seem to be made common knowledge anywhere I have seen. I feel like the vast amount of knowledge about the game is missing–and trying to find out everything in game by trial and error is frustrating at best–especially with the all-too-short daytime period, and the relative worthlessness of anything in the night.

I will be giving this game my best efforts for a while, and we will see how it goes! There are a few other things I will mention, but I will do that in a different thread, as it is general information and questions, and I do not want to derail here.


#200

You can block and shove by moving into close contact with the enemy with block active - once the close in animation plays you can either use ‘f’ or attack to pommel strike or kick your opponent and open him for a follow up attack.

Also very useful is setting up an attack from one guard, then shifting the blade position while the attack button is held, then released - releasing the attack from a feint. Stepping back after an attack is safer and retains more stamina than remaining in measure and attempting to block. The pause before stamina regains is slowest when guard is active, shortest when you are moving at a longer distance without blocking active. Once the stamina is coming in the rates seem less different than the initial pause.

I don’t yet have much success with the combos (had a few fire by accident, none deliberately…) but can fairly comfortably deal with two lightly armoured opponents at once using distance and movement to simplify it to two one vs one fights at the same time… I’ve seen a few friendly strikes (something to watch for if you have allies - you can hurt them).