Combat "Discussion" - Dev Spotted


#121

I was fighting against someone without a helmet and he took 4 swings from my axe to the head until he died. It wasn’t realistic.
I realize that the devs don’t want you to cut trough enemies like hay, But it shouldn’t because they are super humans with crocodile skin, It should because they can actually block and parry and strike back. Apart from the training arena my opponents almost never blocked and in 1v1 engagements they didn’t even strike back. All I had to do was spam attack then wait for stamina to regenerate and spam more attacks.
Also I the feeling i get from the combat is that there is this young woman and he’s playfully hitting this big guy with her purse very gently to his shoulder and it makes a small padded sound. Like that is what it feels like when I’m hitting someone there’s no sense of weight and impact. And you don’t really know if you are damaging your opponent or not until he suddenly dies even tho the killing blow was another one of these pads to the shoulder.

Edit. Also about the unlocked combat.
The way the directional attacking works is somewhat similiar to Mount & Blade, and it works just fine in that game and I imagine it would also work well i this game if you could also lock onto your opponent when you want.

Edit 2. Also sometimes when you block with a shield your character just looks to the ground, I realize why you would do this in real life to protect you from arrows going trough the visor etc. But in a game with limited FoV it just feels dumb.


#122

I agree there should be some kind of unlocked combat. It doesn’t have to be something sophisticated, the way how it is now before it gets locked with a little bit of improvement would be alright IMO. It shouldn’t be full-featured alternative to the locked combat for casual players as some people here suggest. The idea to design a completely different combat systems as an equal alternative to the current one is obviously total nonsense that is out of touch with realistic possibilities. However, I think it should work as a rather non-effective way how to attack weak enemies or people from behind, exactly like you can hit an enemy before it locks to him in the current beta (it especially makes sense when you kill helpless villagers - there is no need to lock on them and to have 5 ways how to attack them, it’s sufficient just to slice them by non-directed attacks). And if a player wanted to have a serious fight, he would need to lock manually, and from that moment he would have all the options of the combat system. So my basic suggestion is to make the locking solely manual, meaning that a player would always have to decide whether he wants to lock on someone, and if he didn’t lock, he would be able to fight in an ineffective free combat mode with non-directed attacks. No automatic locking at all.

And another extremely important thing is changing between locked targets once you are locked on someone. There has to be an easy, fast and accurate way how to change targets. But I’m sure Warhorse is aware of that and this will be solved.


#123

Isn’t there already? I use left Shift or middle mouse button to change targets and it works fine.


#124

The fight doesnt look immersiv. Even for a beta stage.

The Lite unlocked combat should have great animations. Few nice animations for attack and block should be possible.

The combat animations in locked fight have a poor quality. They are not as smooth as they should. The speed has to be fixed.

The enemy AI react to slow.

The models (henrys hands,forearm, weapon) looks really bad and break the immersion too.

Further is the field of view to small for a melee game with first person view. The player have problems to see what henry is doing during moves. Should be optimzed for something about 90(A setting would be great).

The camera angle and moving during combat is a disaster. It makes motion sickness and problems with the orientation. A modern first person game allow camera moves without that orientation issues. The camera need a smooth move. Look at mirror edge 2.

There should be dozens of instant kills and takedowns (unlocked fight) with great animations. Surprised enemy, attack from side, attack from behind) like in far cry with more realistic animations.

There are no finishing moves. During a regular fight (fatal combos, pierce, strangle, dirty attacks). Also during unlocked fight.

The combat system doesnt look like a real fighting expierence. It is not smooth or fluid. I hope that will be better.


#125

I think the fight looks really good. Some quality of life improvements could be done, but the general use of the sword as a defensive weapon which can be used to attack comes across well. Being able to fight one opponent comfortably with multiples being a major problem is also good.

There does feel to be a bit too much emphasis on stamina and it falls too fast when running, making pursuit and cutting down of a crippled opponent ludicrously difficult. Sure you can catch up, but then the no-stamina sword attack whiffs and you have to run to catch up again… ad nauseum or at least till he runs out of stamina.


#126

Yes you “can” switch targets, the problem is that is FAR from intuitive, and when you get into any kind of group battle it’s a disaster. A great example is when you have to sneak into that damn camp. I wound up in a fight against 7 or 8 npcs, and the targeting rose kept targeting targets in the back of the group, so when I would swing, my character would automatically take steps INTO the group, which is the worst place to be in a game where a single hit or two can kill you. Frankly, there animation system, with a tweak to the rose, combined with the same control style as M&B would be ideal. It would require your character “object” watching all animations of those around you, and if you can position your character in a way that allows you to bounce from one opponent to the next with parrys, blocks or blows, then hurray.

Also…I just watched the livestream of the bannerlord demo…and holy crap…it’s not as realistic as this game, but damn if it doesn’t look like they’ve done som amazing work animation-wise.


#127

Can I humbly suggest removing lock on and replacing it with constant fight mode as soon as the weapon is drawn? for extra fluency and all. I’m not sure that it would work but to me it seems like a logic solution to moving and switching targets freely. Let the asterisk fly around the battlefield as a shooting star that burns all foes :slight_smile: ,or not it’s up to you (I mean devs) totally.


#128

I fully agree with your points. There is a bad immersion yet.[quote=“xtremy, post:124, topic:26442”]
The fight doesnt look immersiv. Even for a beta stage.

The Lite unlocked combat should have great animations. Few nice animations for attack and block should be possible.

The combat animations in locked fight have a poor quality. They are not as smooth as they should. The speed has to be fixed.

The enemy AI react to slow.

The models (henrys hands,forearm, weapon) looks really bad and break the immersion too.

Further is the field of view to small for a melee game with first person view. The player have problems to see what henry is doing during moves. Should be optimzed for something about 90(A setting would be great).

The camera angle and moving during combat is a disaster. It makes motion sickness and problems with the orientation. A modern first person game allow camera moves without that orientation issues. The camera need a smooth move. Look at mirror edge 2.

There should be dozens of instant kills and takedowns (unlocked fight) with great animations. Surprised enemy, attack from side, attack from behind) like in far cry with more realistic animations.

There are no finishing moves. During a regular fight (fatal combos, pierce, strangle, dirty attacks). Also during unlocked fight.

The combat system doesnt look like a real fighting expierence. It is not smooth or fluid. I hope that will be better.
[/quote]


#129

That would not work. At least not for mouse and keyboard users.
In fight mode your mouse is controlling direction from which you attack, so you would not be able to control your look.


#130

So far I fought only 5 at one time but I have almost no problem. I say almost as I know what you mean - just in my case, it needed a little bit of timing and I forget about it. But I surely could be an issue.

I have to say I don’t like the M&B system that much and the KCD seems better to me. Can you please elaborate somehow? Perhaps it is because of my bad English but I didn’t understand what you suggest.
Something like was in Witcher (attack automatically directed to the opponent you are looking at, so I often attack one monster, then turn the camera and with another attack, Geralt engage the monster behind)? Becouse that is basicly “snaping” which is the same thing KCD doing right now. Just picking wrong targets it seems.


#131

Hell yes where are the finish moves and fast takedowns. The combat needs better animations.[quote=“xtremy, post:124, topic:26442”]
The fight doesnt look immersiv. Even for a beta stage.
[/quote]


#132

I disagree that combat lack immersion. I played all games like Die by the sword, Chivalry (since it was mod in HL2 and was a bit different), M&B and this in KCD feels most immersive of them all to me.

It is just bugged and somehow clumsy to control. But the attack and combo animations, focus on timing and even target lock are all good things and way to go with realistic combat.

It need to gives player more info what is going on, like when you are sure you parry but you didn’t. It is somehow tied to the Henry’s skill but how exactly… It could be frustrating.
Specially when you then lose any control as the enemy then just keep bashing you and the camera is trying you to vomit. I can take losing but this total confusion experience is a bit too much.

There is no motivation to try combos for the player. Rather spam thrusts, counter attack or pull a bow. Combos only seems to works for me if I have full stamina and that is rare. Not speaking about the hazard that the enemy will parry and counter attack (I know its balance for the special attack - it just doesn’t seems to pay off) and Henry’s tendency to attack form different direction I want him to attack. I even forget those I’ve learned and must re-learn them in beta.

So if they reduce camera effect, makes combo more usable in combat (perhaps by more reliable system to choose direction as current changes after each hit automatically which is confusing) and perhaps adjust the targeting system, as it indeed sometimes picks least favorable opponent…
… it would be great system I believe.


#133

Attack direction is consistent, and quite useful is to feint. Start with one guard then while holding guard (to protect yourself) hold the attack key and then move your attack to the intended direction of attack. Weaker opponents will block the line from your guard, not that of the blow. Can make short work even of shielded opponents this way.

I’ve not really practised combos yet, fighting bandits isn’t the time to experiment with strange new stuff and I haven’t got across to the arena so far.


#134

I think the first person animations are the least immersive part of the game.

The animation are general good. But the animations are not good implement. The combat in first person view looks not half as good as third person. That have to change! Like other people say maybe with higher fov, diffrent camera and animation tweaks. The combat seems very slow and player sometimes can not empathize with henrys moves. The visual immersion is about zero. I agree cinematic finishing moves would improve that.


#135

im having problems fighting, left clicking is non responsive most of the time, i’m not able to complete the sword training or fight anyone… its really ruining my play through…


#136

Try harder. It seems better to save game and fight with cumans like 10 times, cause arena fights are different.
In training you are limited to moves you are supposed to do and even easy opponent is quite hard to deal with.
If you cant left click is likely being out of stamina.


#137

On my first attempt I used the Jack of all trades character and I experienced the same thing you describe. Now I am using the Squire and it is easier (not great but not atrocious either) so I suspect it has something to do with skill and aptitude of the in-game character. Still, I think the combat system is in need of some serious rework.


#138

the combat is just terrible… hate it a lot… needs tons of work…


#139

I confess, I also find arena much harder than figthing outside of it.

Playing with Diplomat I decimated 5 guys (one by one) before even taking damage.
You just have to land 1-2 hits and back away and repeat.
Also spamming stab helps a lot, because even if enemy parries your stab you will interrupt his counterattack with another stab.

But yes, combat need some mild changes and tinkering, before it hits the sweet spot.
Though fighting should never be too easy, this is not fighting game but more of an action advanture game. Killing everyone should never be a good viable option, I think.


#140

I’m not entirely sure that the actual combat system is the only culprit here.I think the current FOV and relatively low framerate we are seeing adds to the problem. Fighting and/or precise movement will never be very fluid under 60 fps. To add to that the current FOV is sort of limited to work well. I think adding a headtracking option, customizable FOV and optimising the game so that we can get 60+ fps would help a lot here.