Combat Thread

Combat system
#1

I hate to start yet another combat thread but I just wanted to get my opinion out there to see what you guys think.

For me the combat feels too slow and soft.

Slow as in too few swings for how fast your stamina runs out. He who has the advantage presses it. I could have 5 guys coming at me yet they all just walk slowly towards me with their highly choreographed moves. AI doesn’t press advantages and even when they do get in close and start hitting you its like they’re just tapping and poking me with a fencing sword.

Soft as I mentioned before like I’m being poked by a fencing sword. Same goes for my attacks on them. It just feels weak. Sword fighting in skyrim felt more satisfying.

Health bars are the bane of my existence. Realistic damage system would be amazing. (dwarf fortress anyone?) People are a lot harder to kill than we give them credit for but that doesn’t mean you add more hp to his health bar or negate damage cause of that plate armor hes wearing. >I really hate hp bars.

If the battles get any larger they’ll look like a big micheal jackson concert with everyone doing the thriller. With the current combat system small battles will work great with increased speed(added speed will add to skill needed to survive a.k.a. thinking on your feet, leading to heart pounding moments in battles) to combat and depth to the health system. When larger battles come into play they will looked staged and soldiers will be spreading out to fight their individual foes.(total war: shogun 2 anyone?)

Combo system is lame and feels like i’m memorizing button codes for mortal combat.

Anyways I’m done bitching what do you guys think?

#2

Not all movements are implemented yet. So this slow terminator walking towards you will change.

1 Like
#3

That’s good to hear. I’d like to see 5 guys running towards me with murder in their eyes waving swords around wildly to keep me on the defensive when they know it’s only me alone.

EDIT: Also like to mention I’m going by my current experiences with the beta build.

3 Likes
#4

I have to say that my experience with combat is much the same. It really helps when you learn how to un-target someone, because if there’s ever more than one you unfortunately spend most of your time backpedaling for stamina and end up dragging your reticle around the screen in an attempt to remove the sticky targeting. I think it would be more helpful and fluid to force targeting to a keybind, to either being on or off. It would definitely make striking unknowing NPC’s easier.

I do have to say that it does feel slower than necessary, though currently recognize the reasoning behind it. Combat’s unforgiving and a slight mistake will undoubtedly cost you dearly, as is the intention. I’ve also had trouble blocking using a shield. It doesn’t seem to work when you’re targeting.

1 Like
#5

You can try the middle mouse button for releasing lock on (have to hold it down though) or pressing sprint key.

#6

I’m not sure how you could fight them if with the lock on system. But you are right for now it’s like backing away from zombies hitting them occasionally then run away collect stamina then repeat until they are dead.
It’s good to hear they work on it.

#7

It’s really hard to kill guys in armour in reality. I don’t feel fighting soft because armour really matters so much as it does in the game currently. Have you tried fighting without armour in game? You’d die fast and that’s really realistic. In fact in the game you can kill easier :stuck_out_tongue: than in reality.

#8

Combat is just not fun to be honest…

You run out of stamina too fast, It feels slow and unresponsive. and doesn’t flow very well. well i just don’t like it, at this point I’m like “Fuck realism” make this shit fun or this game is gonna bust.

#9

Combat in it’s current form doesn’t represent the final iteration we’ll see in the actual completed game.

People seem to forget that all we’ve really been shown thus far, and been allowed to play, is essentially an older cutdown beta build. Which is really more of a refined tech demo more than anything.

Also, think on the RPG elements of the game as well; the player can and will improve on not only stamina but also sword technique and skill level. Power / strength increases etc… you’ll no doubt still have to put some time and effort into perfecting the in-game combat, which should go a long way to making it ‘fun’ for you. But as they say, nothing worthwhile was ever easy.

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#10

You make a fair point and i certainly hope you are correct. I want this game to succeed and combat is obviously a huge part of that.

#11

That’s good. I really hope for mortal-kombat style combo stuff to go. Much of the combat is pretty unplayable with mouse+keyboard since body part aiming deadzone just doesn’t work as it should and you can’t be quite sure which way to drag mouse to make precise selection - it seems to jump all over

#12

The fights are to slow right now. Give all Humas a max Stamina. Stamina must be a value that can be trained. Heavy Armors reduce the max Stamina. no stamina after 2 or strikes isnt good, that slow downs the fights to much. My english is not the best but i try toi explain anthoer system.

I have Stamina Value 150 as Exampel.
I have a heavy Aromr to protect myself, Stamina reduced to 120.

  • Every attack reduce my stamina -10
  • Every block -5
  • If i take a hit, but i am not wounded -20
  • If i am wounded max Stamina is also reduced (-20) but that can not be refreshed.
  • But, as long as i am over 100, 66% over max Stamina see above (150) my Stamnia comes back to max in 1 or 2 seconds.
  • After 30 seconds of a fight max Stamina reduced to 90 (120-30 as Exampel) or i loos every second 1 point max stamina, like bleeding.
  • Now it takes 3 or 4 to reach 90 again after a few blocks or attacks.
  • After 1 min i loos again 30 Stamina, so i have now 60 left.
  • if i attack now 1 Time and block 1 time, i am under 33% of max stamina, now all attacks and blocks are slower, and it takes 4 seconds to reack 60 again.

All values are only exampels, but i hope it shows what i mean. With this System i can handel different weapons and Armores very well, and at the beginning i can make fights easier for players, because enemys can loos stamina faster then me.

This Systm makes fights faster, because Enemys and the Players dont need so much brakes to reach a good stamina value again. Both sides can attack more in a shorter time.

#13

Since i cant play the beta ill just say what i think from video footage. the base is good but it looks like it needs more flavour.

  • Directional block is much needed in hard mode.
  • Being able to toss enemies to the ground would be nice. poking them while in the ground would be glorious.
  • Dirty moves like tossing dust to the eyes and things like that woulds be nice for some roleplaying.
  • Throwable daggers or dirty dagger damage while blocking an attack.
  • HUD sword stance marker needs to be a disabable or at least remove it from the middle of the screen.
  • The game need more shouts and louder metal against metal SFX.
  • A no locking way of fighting would be nice too. The concept of hard locking into enemies is outdated to begin with.
  • Quicksteps/ backsteps are much needed. maybe quicksteps can lead into stronger attack variants because of momentum at the expence of more stamina drain.
#14

Directional block is overstated both in importance and difficulty.

I spent an hour last night doing nothing more than zornhau cuts to a modified pflug with an offline step… this is a master strike and both takes and hits in a single tempo against 4 cuts from the (opponents) right side (oberhau, zornhau, mittlehau and unterhau), or the thrust.

If a cut is sent in from the other side then the same cut can be thrown from a left hand guard, or a void or hangetort with ablauffen (a hanging guard with running off) or a modified pflug are instinctive and easy to perform. As long as your intent is to first defend and not only to attack with no thought to defence, the selection of parry type isn’t a difficult one that warrants a confusing multi-key process. In some ways even having a ‘parry’ button is odd. If you are momentarily in a guard and a cut or thrust is sent your way you will either cut into it, parry strongly but with flexibility and allow the blade to run off or parry firmly and enter a bind with winding or grappling - if anything a button that makes you ‘leave’ a parry - if your opponent is failing or flitting he can attack before you have recovered if you get no feeling from a bind - it takes quite some time for some people to recover from a failed parry.

As for stamina and movement - all cuts or thrusts are done with a step* (it opens the hip angle and permits proper movement of the arms with good structure) - it then doesn’t really matter much if you move your body well over the leading foot in an offline step (or a lunge) to give distance or angle to the cut - there is no noticeable increase in effort.

  • and most changes are done with a real or threatened cut or thrust - often as a provoker so that a predictable counter can be taken and your opponent hit (whether than be a single tempo master strike, or a multiple tempo parry & short edge cut.
#15

All these foreign technicisms are nice and everything but how would all of this improve the game as it is in the beta? i wonder how it will look in the final version of the game. I certainly hope it will be more fleshed out than it is now. Still its better than Skyrim swordfights, thats for sure.

#16

I suppose the take home is that parrying is not a thing that you choose to do. A cut thrown at you with no warning will almost always be warded. It is only if you are not paying any kind of attention (it happens, especially in training), or choose to attack in a way that fails to simultaneously cover yourself that this attack will not be blocked. You actually have to choose not to parry to give an opening that can be exploited in a single tempo with a direct strike.

All of the finesse of the systems is to create an ineffective cut (which can be either taken and a hit delivered while the blade is bound, or covered) or a feint that draws the parry to the wrong opening(s) while you strike from the opposite side**. Again here the parry is made, and it is the fencer who correctly assesses that a feint is in progress who can abandon a failed parry and react to the new attack who has the timing right - but this is really hard to do compared to parrying a direct cut. The actual hand/foot work to take the second attack isn’t the issue, only the time it takes to give up searching for the missed parry.

** with some really simple techniques that can end the fight with a single counter cut that also solidly parries.

None of this wide fencing is applicable to armoured fighting though, and with armour you need to close in, looking for grapples, pommel strikes and pointwork to gaps. The head is a common target for wide fencing though, so even with harness - no helmet could be treated quite similarly to unarmoured fighting. (This is because distances favour strikes to shoulders and head - legs are out of measure when the face can be thrust, and arms are a possible target, but exchanging a strike to his arms for a cut to your own head is a poor idea, so arms are only taken when parrying the arms serves the same purpose as parrying his weapon (and the angles are suitable), or sometimes with relatively fast but weak cuts from long measure (where hands can be reached but not the head))

#17

Areas that I feel need improvement as they are showcased in the beta:

  • The low stamina regeneration makes fights painfully slow, unninteresting and clunky. This makes the entire combat not feel visceral but gamey instead. MC looks fit and able so theres no reason why he couldnt string three sword attack and have a good reserve for a counter. But the main problem is the regeneration which makes combat drag on far more than it should.

    • More shouts and louder ones from NPCs and main character too would make things more interesting and less monotone.

    • In the beta it takes several blows to unarmored foes to fell them which i think is unrealistic. Henry himself also has quite a lot of resistance to damage. But maybe the beta is on normal or unbalanced. I hope a hard mode will be added to make victory more quick and sudden by lethal blows from part of enemies and Henry himself.

    • Hard mode should have directional block instead of auto block for added inmersion and the removal of the HUD sword stance indicator.

    • Im going to assume the retail game will allow 2 vs 1 or more combats so ill point out the problems the locking system would generate. Firstly the concept of hardlock is quite dated as it makes things feel clunky and more complex than they should be. Games that require it are action games that pit one against many enemies like Devil may cry and games of its ilk. This game would benefit i believe with a softlock aproach. The game locks onto the closest enemy or the enemy you are facing. This would elevate the inmersion of the battles tenfold. To accompany this smother and moderate quicker movement speed when sword is drawn (steps) are a requirement.

    • Quick stepts are activated with timing while under attack but why is this nessesary when a person can quickstep whenever he wants? a double directional tap of the analog stick or other command could achieve the same thing while adding more depth to the game instead of limiting it as a possible result to an enemy action. Quick steps could also lead into different variants of attacks because of momentum that need to be watched out for. They could lead into tossing weaker or unprepared enemies into the ground allowing for a ground stab or execution.

    • Parries and ripostes feel generally fine to execute but the enemy parring rates feels so random and theres no visual indication that they will execute one as far as i know. A certain visual quirk animation could fix this for AI enemies. Of course a riposte can be parried for a counter counter attack but being able to discern one and skip it in the first place would feel much better. I know having the enemies subtly telegraph that they have a parry ready is not realistic per se but lets not forget this is a game and certain tools are always nessesary to allow one to be above the programed random nature of AI controled enemies. If PVP was present of course said indicator will/should not be there since it man against man. I also suggest using the LT button for guarding since Xbox controllers lack responsiveness in both of it bumper buttons. Its a well known problem for xbox controllers. Kick could be assigned to LB (left bumper) instead.

    • Ive yet to find a bow so ill refrain to comment on that but as long as it alows a certain degree of prediction where the arrow will go it should suffice. I may update if find one and feel its not quite right.

#18

I don’t know if they’ve changed anything but I haven’t played in the game in months, but came back to it to find me at least being able to play the game with 30 fps on low, and the combat felt much more forgiving and more fun. I like the way the game is heading. It will be a godsend when we get better fps.

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