Cumans' armament

[Mundhalai-khan]

Such thread already exists, but only in Russian. So I will create the same in 英語. Thanks to @velizariy
Let us begin.
Helmet 1

Inspiration for this one was taken from Type IV helmets by Kirpichnikov.
Probable prototypes are either Helmet of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich:

Or helmet from Gorodets, the closest one:

Problems with ingame model:
一 Anachronism. These helms were not in use by XV century
二 Decorations: Type IV helmets were expensive ones and had ornaments and were gilded. While the helmets in game look too simple.
三 Rarity. I can’t say about that since we don’t have full game but there should be only several of such helmets.
四 These helmets usually had a yalovets: a small jut used to attach a plumage.
五 Stitches were made “в потай” (hidden).

[Lucem]

ah good, I was about to start my own thread. btw your russian thread is very well done and informative (had to use google translate lol) . Anyways, I agree that there are a lot of inaccuracies within the current Cuman equipment, so lets discuss them.

Firstly

@Mundhalai-khan I believe the helmet you posted was actually inspired by the following pieces. The helmets appear to have been common within the golden horde ranks which mostly consisted of cumans/kipchaks, but the problem is that such helmets belong to the 13th century.

Another helmet that belongs to the 12-13th century is the Tagancha helmet, which was used extensively by both the Cumans and the Rus.

However what I find to be the most problematic is the following helmet…

I dont know how you came up with it

Maybe a mixture of these two?

The problem with this helmet is that most scholars agree that it’s Rus’ in origins. While I wouldn’t roll out the possibility of the usage of such helmets by the cumans (even with the half mask) due to the very extensive cuman-rus’ links, but the main problem is that it they belong to the 10th-13th centuries.

That’s about it for now. I will discuss the rest of the inaccuracies later.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Another helmet that belongs to the 12-13th century is the Tagancha helmet, which was used extensively by both the Cumans and the Rus.

Helmet 2 “Tagancha”

Tagancha helmet in this game is actually looks correctly.
But: in the game this helmet looks like it was used by common warriors. However, such helmets were used by nobility. So, these helmets were richly decorated (gilded, ornaments, plumage tied on yalovets) and had a mail aventail attached.

[Lucem]

Yes, I know. I never said the way the helmet looks is inaccurate, all I meant was that it’s outside the game’s timeframe.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Most of cumans’ helmets in the game are outside the timeframe.

[SirWarriant]

Most of cumans’ helmets in the game are outside the timeframe.

Couldn’t that be due to them being mercenaries? Gallowglassess mercs from Ireland and Scotland generally used equipment that was 100-150 years (sometimes even more) behind.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Helm 3 - “Nightmare”

Prototype for this helmet is:

Chernigov helmet from Chyornaya Mogila tomb. Such helmets were used in X-XIII century. The one in game received from Chernigov helmets:
一 Ornament of trident on forehead.
二 Segmented structure.
三 Shape of yalovets.
四 Wavy design of segments.
Best way to fix such anachronistic helmet is to remove it from the game completely

[Lucem]

I don’t see the correlation between serving as a mercenary and using archaic equipment. Ireland was fairly isolated and was behind the rest of western Europe in terms of technology.

[SirWarriant]

I don’t see the correlation between serving as a mercenary and using archaic equipment

I seem to remember this being the official explanation for the equipment used by the Cumans. Nomadic mercenaries might use hand me downs, since its what they have available to them. I also seem to remember someone saying these cumans were somewhat isolated from the main group, ill do a search and see if i can’t find it.

[213]

i think the idea is that because such helmets are so old, they are re purposed and used by commoners as low cost equipment, which isn’t outside the realm of possibility. we see this all the time throughout history, even among the western euros you see this.

as for late 14th century gear, advise what you think would be more appropriate.

[Lucem]

Actually, using 100-400 years old Eurasian steppe equipment in Bohemia is vey much outside the realm of possibility…this is the definition of far fetched.

[SirWarriant]

100-400 years

Woah there, pick a time frame. Is it 100, 200, 300 or 400 years out of date. Mercs far from their home lands using 100 year old equipment is not really that hard to believe. 400 years, yes that’s a huge stretch, but you’ll need to specify which pieces are that old (if any).

[Lucem]

It doesn’t make sense that they are using such equipment after being settled in Hungary for more than two centuries, as I said such equipment belonged further east. Also I still don’t see the correlation you are trying to make between the usage of archaic equipment and mercs. Lastly these Cumans are feudal subjects of the king of Hungary and not just some lowly mercs, they had their own settlements and could probably afford their own equipment.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Helmet 4. Masked

Biggest mistake with this helm is its constriction - akin to spangenhelms.


Which is strange, because there are some nice examples of masked helmets.

Helmet of Lipovets.

Helmet of Kovali.

To improve model designers should:
一 Remove all overlays and rivets (to make surface smooth), which make mask look like tightly attached to helmet;
ニ Remove ball from yalovets.
三 Make a visible fixture for aventail (there isn’t on ingame model) or hide a part of mail under helmet so it would look like there is a cap with attached aventail.
四 Add decorative ears.

Mask model is fine.
But developers should have also implemented a way to lift and lower a mask with some impact on gameplay (exampli gratia: if you lift mask you get lower defense but better view and vice versa)
There are two ways of lifting mask:
一 A hinge to lift mask up.

ニ Pin on mask attaches to hinge on helmet. Mask can be turned on 180 degrees.
Also, masked helmets are used only by very rich and noble warriors. So there should be only several in the whole game.

[snejdarek]

It doesn’t make sense that they are using such equipment after being settled in Hungary for more than two centuries, as I said such equipment belonged further east.

Well it doesn’t make sense that some gypsies live in same conditions as 500 years ago back in India now that they have been settled in Slovakia for several hundreds years. And yet, here we are.

https://www.stalo-se.cz/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Cikánská-osada-v-předzakrpatí.jpg

The main difference between similar settlements in 1850 and 2017 are the satelites on rooftops and mobilephones in hand, otherwise not much has changed.

[DrFusselpulli]

after being settled in Hungary for more than two centuries

Well, this is not the case. The game takes place in 1403. The Mongols attacket Hungary and beated them by far 1241 in the battle of Mohi and killed a lot of people in Hungary, nearly depopulate the whole country, and they would have taken it, if their leader Khan Ögedei wouldn´t have died in the same year.
Most hungarians where dead, and the Mongols retreated to the east, even if they were not beaten militarily.
To re populate the country, and to have some military forces, King Bela IV invited cumans, who came in the following years. He also invited people form Wallonia, France and Germany, and after the war Hungary was very poor and behind the rest of western Europe in terms of technology. So we don´t talk about more then two centuries, we talk about 160 years.

Helmet of Lipovets.

This is damn close to the border of Hungary in 1403. Around 200km.

[Lucem]

@snejdarek living conditions and usage of equipment aren’t even comparable . This seems like a desperate attempt to make an argument.

@DrFusselpulli I am aware of the history of the Cumans, but it seems you guys have relied more on Wikipedia and google images rather than actual sources. Shame, I am pretty sure people would have been more outraged if the bohemians were equipped with armor from the 13th century.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Helmet 4

That spike, it is too long.
I don’t know, what served as prototype for this one, but it’s probably:

Cuman helmet found in Hungary.
Some work would turn this model into something normal:
Make spike smaller, add overlay with brows and peak (optional), make a stripe on lower part of hemlet wider.

[Lucem]

It is most likely based on the helmet on the left in this 14th century fresco.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Or this: