Homosexuality In The Game/Time Period

[Matthew1J]

And how is this related with homosexuality in historically acurate medieval game? I think you are taking his post out of context.

In this very thread you could see homosexual trying to force homosexuality in game and being offensive (*edit beegun). I understand it’s sensitive topic for you. But in this sentence you are just overacting and misinterpreting what he wrote.

I’m not even going to say it’s a bad thing, though when you’re propagandizing that homosexuals are every where flaunting things in your face that we need to stay in the closet/shadows/dark cave somewhere out of site so you as a heterosexual can walk around and never see two guys hold hands.

This has nothing to do with gay parades or displaying homosexuality in games. Difference between these two things and two guys holding hands is like difference between douche and normal gay from Kay and Peele video. That’s how I see it.

PS: I won’t say a word if warhorse show us how it was back then with homosexuals in our region.

[Madaras]

And how is this related with homosexuality in historically acurate medieval game?

It isn’t it’s a response to a post within a thread.

n this very thread you could see homosexual trying to force homosexuality in game and being offensive (sisbee)

I scrolled through quickly and didn’t see what he wrote so I cannot comment on if it was offensive or not

But in this sentence you are just overacting and misinterpreting what he wrote.

when you’re propagandizing that homosexuals are every where

It begins by gays and gay themes forcing into the games

I don’t see a misinterpretation there. Also

Just keep your sexuality to yourself

when you’re propagandizing that homosexuals are every where flaunting things in your face that we need to stay in the closet/shadows/dark cave somewhere out of site so you as a heterosexual can walk around and never see two guys hold hands.

I don’t think that’s misinterpreted either. Both of our statements are clear to anyone who bothers to read them. However you decide to view them is your own prerogative.

[Matthew1J]

it’s not about gays, it’s about their propaganda

It begins by gays and gay themes forcing into the games

FORCING (beeing forced)

ends up with some kid of marches and parades in streets with dancing half naked weirdos wearing leather pants and pink glasses

Just keep your sexuality to yourself, it suppose to be private and intimate

These 4 belongs together. You are looking at them separately. He didn’t say that homosexuals are everywhere flaunting things in his face. He said that its more frequent lately and he doesn’t like it. Two guys holding hands aren’t part of homosexual propaganda. If you can’t understand this then i suppose it’s language barrier between you two (word sexuality is main problem because each of you propably understands it differently).

I don’t think that’s misinterpreted either. Both of our statements are clear to anyone who bothers to read them. However you decide to view them is your own prerogative.

I’m pretty sure that his statements aren’t clear to you.

[Madaras]

Then clearly you missed where I stated they aren’t private and intimate and proceeded upon explaining how they aren’t. So once again clearly my statements are unclear to you.

[Matthew1J]

word sexuality is main problem because each of you propably understands it differently

You migth missed this. I editted it in.

[Wakko]

What is this thread about again? Is it about gay people in kingdom come? gay in medieval time? promoting gay people? I’m very confused what this thread actually is about.

[MadSmejki]

Guys, haven’t you drifted a bit off-topic? If you want to argue about the picture of homosexuals today, do it elsewehere please.

[mwnciboo]

Your talk of “Gay Propaganda” just makes you come across as a Paranoid individual, there is no mass gay conspiracy, there is no Gay Agenda trying to take over the world, you even sub-divide Gays into “Weirdo gays” and “Normal” Gays. What on Earth are you talking about? Do you have the same issues with Hetero-sexual couples doing this? Can I not dress as I wish and dance around? What the hell has my sexual preferences got to do with my fundamental freedoms to wear leather trousers or Pink glasses? I’m hetero but what difference does that make, you are putting forth a personal opinion based on terrible stereo-types. Your are mistaking your distaste, dislike and intolerance with a pseudo-argument about “Propaganda” which in turn is your own Propaganda trying to justify your own ill-formed opinion.

Mark Twain said it best "“Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.”

It may shock you to learn between 3-5% of the US populace is Gay…So given 5% if you have 20 friends, chances are one of them is Gay. Think about that, and think if deep in your heart it would change your opinion of them? If it does you aren’t a true friend anyway.

[Amoncz]

you have to understand some people maybe sick and tired of gays. The media like Huffpost plus progressive crowd have to be thanked for it. Aren’t you anoyed by that? They treat you.first as a gay not as a person.

[AlmostNormal]

Personally, I’d rather not have the game be about sexuality, of any type. It’s the other promised features that brought me to support this game. Just my 2 cents.

[Madaras]

Though off topic So I’ll only state this once. I’m hate that politicians try to use any group of people by race gender or sexual orientation. The media tends to favor those politicians. So where I see how a person could perceive an activist movement from gay people trying to destroy heterosexual way of life. Though in reality we’re just human like everyone else I don’t know what any other human could have a problem with two individuals loving each other (when you strip politics out of it) it effects them in no way, no way more than two heterosexuals effect a gay person with their love for each other. If you wish to discuss this further please message me instead or whoever you wish to discuss this issue with Now to bring this full circle and back on topic (Though I’m glad we’ve had this forum to discuss this issue. I think it’s been informative for many on both sides)

Here is my summary of what we’ve learned so far.

Not sure if it was already stated here, but there is one interesting case (well only one) about homosexuality from 1395, London - John Rykener case. Sadly, there is not said, what happened with him or what was his punishment.

Latin to English translation

Latin to Czech translation

Also, I’ve read somewhere that preHussite Bohemia was somewhat more tolerating than ‘western world’ so they weren’t sentenced to death but only whipped or forced out of town (by whipping)

Fun fact: There was a unit of soldiers in ancient thebes (not carthage, thanks for pointing that out, Tazman1965) called the “Sacred Band” which consisted of gay couples only; with the idea being that they would fight harder for their loved ones in battle.

Erm… I stand to be corrected but I’m almost positive that homosexuality wasn’t really that much of an issue outside of the more rabid congregations… maybe frowned upon but not actively engaged…

Organised religion was just winding up its insane puritanical engines and getting ready to troll the world…

The armed services, at least from some of my sparse reading, were surprisingly tolerant…

I would love to see it historically correct. And opposed to what some may be saying that does not mean that it should not be in the game, but rather that it can be a dangerous road to take.The #1 thing that would bug me, and does bug me in RPG’s is lack of freedom.

To those claiming it is pushed upon you everywhere I have only one thing to say “Grow up”, no one is actually pushing it on you. I would love to homosexuality in the game, because it has always existed. Even if there are some cultures that does not respect it.Because I know that most of the people opposed to the idea do not mind a female-female homosexual couple, but frown upon a male-male couple.And the solution is very simple, if one do not like male-male couples then don’t play one.

personal note:Why do some people keep linking “homosexuality or whatever sexual minority” and “sexual|erotical fantasy” together?It is follows the same nonsensical line as:

>There will be heterosexuals…>Oh hell, no, no sex. Y U make porno?

Homosexuality in this game, if present, will be a deeply personal, social or religious topic. And it will be historically accurate and authentic or none.

Given this historical background, we are extremely sensitive about being pushed by whatever influence groups and ideologies (e.g. political correctness, which is a very foreign concept to our culture). Please be respectful to our history and culture and let the developers create the game, hero, and story according to their preference and not according to any current political or personal agenda.

Best I have is wikipedia . I would like to look at John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality pages 289-291 but I don’t have acces to this book.

If homosexuality is indeed part of the game they should show how they was also treated in medieval Europe.

I think that if any sort of depiction of homosexuality or bisexuality was to be implemented in the game based upon PC/NPC or NPC/NPC interactions, it should be revealed in a logical manner for that time period, ie. it would have to be clandestine, subject to persecution, and expose the hypocrisy and cruelty of the persecutors.

However @Gunfreak brought up a good point about higher-estate homosexuals. Well, sinners generally. It wasn’t unsual for a noble or rich man to receive a pardon of to be found innocent when commiting a serious crime.

Homosexuality was probably most common among monks living in isolated monasteries, and even they had to be very careful. “Coming out of the closet” was extremely dangerous during that period of time, so it’s actually irrelevant if there are homosexuals or not in the game: You simply will not be able to spot them, since they are used to hiding their sexuality.

As a gay man I can honestly say leave it out. Only put stuff in that the developers feel passionate about and are within the original vision. If they want to devote time to relationships of ANY kind, be respectful and honest but otherwise just stick to the vision of the game.

Just a sampling: “1432 – In Florence the first organization specifically intended to prosecute sodomy is established, the “Night Officials”, which over the next 70 years arrest about 10,000 men and boys, succeeding in getting about 2,000 convicted, with most then paying fines.”

So to pretend that homosexuality did not exist or to equate it with pedophilia are certainly not historically accurate portrayals.

That being said, communities were much more intimate in the medieval age. If someone was living in sin, it was something that would usually be found out pretty quickly. But that doesn’t mean that, if you were gay and ‘found out’, you’d instantly be rounded up by a mob of angry peasants with torches and pitchforks. It’s more likely you’d be looked at with distrust. One of the odd things is that peasants with abnormal traits were pretty much ignored. If you were a Priest or a Lord, however, you were put to a much higher level of scrutiny.

Thanks for sharing your insights! The more this discussion evolves the more I’d like to see a twisting side story with a homosexual character hiding his nature. It’s a great way to test your personal moral as a player.

Humans are much more sexual than other species, and history has proven this - bisexuality lies in almost anyone, and history proves this. Greeks and Romans (to an extent) showed us the true nature of human sexuality: A “surprisingly” large amount of humans are bisexual, at least to a degree - while heterosexuality is required for reproduction, humans go beyond the purpose of reproduction when pursuing sex, everyone was doing it with everyone, no matter the gender.

Now the compulsory heterosexuality around 1400 was much stronger than it is today, so open bi- or homosexuality would not have been the smartest thing to do. I still believe it happened behind closed curtains - and much more often than people assume, especially in the church.

So, ultimately, as long as the matter is handled in a delicate and realistic way, go for it.I don’t really care either way, as I don’t play a game for relationships you can form in it, but if it adds to the immersion of some, go for it.

I think we can have a homosexual character in the game somewhere even more than one, but only through deep trust and conversation would you ever learn about it. If the developer do decide to add relationships I do believe that finding a homosexual partner should be hard, because, well it was back in the day, but possible.

To summarize I don’t mind as long as it doesn’t break the realism, and I believe it is totally possible and realistic for the main character to run across a gay character.

We don’t want to make Bioware-like sex-as-a-win-state romance simulator either. Sex, any sex, in the game will always be contextualized. And our contexts are:

historical authenticity = themes will appear as they appeared then although we may leave some out (like killing of children or people pooping in public spaces - yeah this happened) and some sexual themes may also have the same fate.
realism = everything should feel natural. Mandatory homosexual companion (mind we don’t have companions) or unknown woman offering you sex just after you saved her from the hands of a thug™ are not these cases.

Homosexuality is only a matter of statistics (and as it is fuzzy it actualy is more than the famous 4% to some extend). However homosexuality was viewed as sodomy and as such was punished very very harshly (it was a more serious crime than murder basically). Therefore if we ever come with some LGBT themes in the game it will be handled authentically and people will hide it as much as they can. Also the outcomes or player’s options should respect the historical context. But this might be viewed as edgy and we could be accused of homophoby. So it is a very complicated topic and as such was not decided yet.

As a gay man myself, I can understand wanting to project a part of your identity onto the character, and not being able to do so can really impede immersion. All that considered, the dark ages were not known for their sweeping waves of tolerance, especially towards homosexuality. Personally, I feel if a bunch of medieval peasants and religious zealots started prancing about pretending that the 1400’s was the pinnacle of sexual tolerance would actually pull me out of the world faster than not being able to role play the character as myself.

Phew,that concludes the most on-topic dialogues I could find.

[Amoncz]

Yeah…i’m kinda confused the same way. Is this about how would a gay person date in 1402?

[Madaras]

You could say dating. Originally I was personally curious how gay men might find each other (much like Christians used to have a secret way of finding each other when they were persecuted…for those that don’t know it’s that fancy fish symbol.) However because of how the conversation has evolved I think it’s more about how homosexuality is viewed in that time period. Also if the developers should accurate portray homosexuality or not.

[Wakko]

Homosexuality was as far as I know not accepted during that time period, and the devs should not have it in the game as far as im concerned

[Amoncz]

I guess they couldn’t find each other. No media, no gay bars, nothing of that sort. Just by luck and even that would be really rare. As a gay you would be afraid to ask somebody if he have the same orientation as you when it was punishable by death. Maybe some secret society? Not for poor, that is for sure.

[Simone_Naldoni]

or became preachers at those times

[Gorzkiewski]

If such idea was implemented, it would heavily harm my roleplay. You know, punishing sinners for the glory of the Lord. I don’t want to be considered as evil and homophobic just because I want to play the game the way that is realistic.

Furthermore:

1. You all have to understand that in medieval Central Europe open homosexuality was as rare as presence of other races. Probably you would outlive more lieges than meet such people.

2. I don’t like romance in games as I believe it is an unnecessary fluff for… I don’t even know, the underaged? As in Crusader Kings it serves creating the dynasty, in Mount & Blade it makes you allies, but in the rest of cases you’ve got a “fancy” cutscene or a meaningless perk. A wasted effort.

Then why is it worth adding a bromance?

[Solidus]

@Madaras Huh, why didn’t I get a reply on my thoughts as the others did, this is so “exlusionary”?! (anyways any magyar heritage? “madaras” means roughly “with lot of birds”. Just asking!) I mean come on, I really do accept your choice (or destiny or however we interpret this), but hey, didn’t you get an asnwer for your questions? Most players wouldn’t want it in-game, and most people think it was such a “white raven” in the time period that it isn’t neccessary to be represented in a historical game. Maybe a mod that you could make or find some people to make it?

[Allvaldr]

One of these threads. Bleh. My opinion:

• Don’t turn this into a Biowhore game. They may be the most popular studio making “roleplaying” games these days, but if this game turns out a glorified date simulator I will be mightily pissed off.

• It’ll be easier not to delve into these kinds of hot topics at all. It offers nothing that interesting to the game and only causes an easily avoided shitstorm because any way of dealing with this subject in an authentic enough manner WILL be seen as promoting homophobia by the mass media who are still considerably anti-videogames.

• Plus, if we’re basing quests on hot political topics, what’s next? Should they add a quest for those who learn alchemy, to help a woman have an abortion? That really happened as well back in those days after all. Imagine the publicity that would cause if it was put in a game, lol.

And before I’m shouted at for being a homogoniser because of this post; realise I’m a sexual deviant myself IRL (and yes, I treat that as a badge of honour).

[Kiwi]

LOL…

I am not the one that is bent in this thread and that is very clear. But you sound like you might be an expert on that subject.

Just because homosexuality exists does not make it normal. I am sure a lot of other sexual preferences have existed a long time too but that does not make them normal.

Normal - Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, expected, average, or typical state or condition.

Should it be in the game? No.

In a mod? Sure why not if that’s what you want because with mods the users have the choice what is in their game and it does not force your abnormal sexual preference on the rest of us.