How detailed is sword fighting?

Combat system
#1

Hello there! So some time ago, a friend of mine recommended me to check this game out. I’m not gonna lie, I ABSOLUTELY love the concept of this game and it’s enormous emphasis on realism. I plan to buy the game immediately after it comes on Steam, which I am sure it will because of it’s relative popularity and how well made it is.

Now, I am a student of historic European martial arts, specially of German fencing. I became very excited when I saw the trailer because of how well polished and how realistic the combat was but I’d like to know exactly how detailed combat is. Are we able to change into all guards? Are the master cuts present? For example, am I able to break and counter a downwards cut using the Zwerchhau cut? I am very curious about all these little things. After all, I may have a quite unfair advantage when I buy this game! :grin:

#2

Watch a video of the training in the arena. Then watch a video of someone fighting when they’re not in a tiny fenced off box. You can dodge, parry, counter, block, feint. Which, if timed perfectly, is quite effective. Note the key word if. If you mess up the timing you will get stomped.

In real combat, when you’re not in a tiny box, the person that gets the first hit in wins. That’s it. There is no fancy dancing around. There’s no need to. All it does is make the combat take longer, and leave you vulnerable to a counter attack.

Nothing you think you know about HEMA will give you any advantage in this game.

#3

Hello there.
Here you can watch Combat presentation:

I think that given the technical possibilities the combat is as close to real combat as it can get, without sacrifacing controlls over your character.
Which basically means, it wont be perfect but still good.

1 Like
#4

You can’t do as much in a game with limited controls as you can with a real longsword (or alternative weapon). There are very real limitations of control scope, an absence of tactility and of a requirement to keep the system usable.

That said, there is a physical collision model on the weapons (and other items in the world), so most of the things you can do in the real world should result in similar responses in the game if you can pull them off.

Guards are simplified to 5 for cut and 5 for thrust (e…g Tag/Ox for the high guard), but the movement to parry or strike depends on where your sword starts, and where your opponent’s sword is.

Timing is very important, Vor is good, but it isn’t easy to keep it. There is a stronger emphasis on parries and staggering than always seems reasonable, rather than binding and winding, or cutting from the bind, but while not all is as fully developed as a complete fechtsbuch it shares some commonality.

While I’m not sure how much HEMA will help with winning in the game (beyond basic concepts), but at a beginner level having some concept of what a fight looks like from a first person does help with sparring (though I am sure anyone who knows what they were doing would make very short work of me).

As far as representing a reasonable “semi-armoured/unarmoured fight” goes, KC:D is the best I’ve seen so far. But it concedes somewhat on the protectiveness of armour for ‘gameplay’ reasons, so half-swording is an occasional thing, rather than a near constant against an opponent in harness.

#5

As previously alluded to, the advantage you take into this game as a historical fencer is that you have a good grasp of basic fighting concepts like distance, attacking in true times, tempo and judgment. Further, as the mocap was done by historical fencers, you will be able to recognise enemy guards and spot attacks earlier i.e. you will recognise the cues. I would further say that you will also have good tactics (e.g. how to get in and out of distance safely) and good tactical awareness.

I have found that it is remarkable how well all the above RL stuff translates into the game.

#6

Worth adding that the combat is purely vs AI (and between AI entities). The game is currently only being developed as a 1 player game.

#7

Thank you all for replying. I watched the video posted above, and while combat seems very different from reality close examination reveals that it is, indeed, as realistic as it could be. While I didn’t particularly like the emphasis on parrying over quick reaction, I completely understand why it was done.

Well, it still is the most realistic longsword combat we’ll have, at least until VR technology is advanced enough!

2 Likes
#8

unless repeatedly stabbing with a longsword is the best sword fighting strategy in the world…probably not perfectly realistic…there are a bunch of stances and directions you can attack and parries and blocks and such but i don’t bother with them since stab til you run out of stamina, back off, catch your breath and repeat killed everything.

#9

This isn’t a universally useful technique. Neither in real life, nor in the game, but thrusts do have the longest reach.

If your opponent can identify your attack and can react inside your attack tempo then you will be punished for being so predictable. An opponent with shield and sword is very difficult to thrust against - longsword is tricky, and only with a reach advantage such as longsword vs arming sword or mace or axe are there relatively easy ‘safe’ attacks.

As with real fighting using an attack which is hard to ward is most likely to be successful - and this mostly relies on the relative position of weapon(s) and the speed which the line can be closed down.

#10

hm, I’m not sure is VR technology will ever be “advanced enough”, because of physical boundaries. as far as I know, you could create fast movements in movies for VR, but your brain can’t handle it. or am I wrong in this part?

#11

VR is bad. It’s a screen strapped to your head. Never forget that. It also has motion sensors, and it can detect movement similar to mocap by monitoring head movement, as well as accelerometers as seen in phones and Wii. Some also have eye tracking. Then you have the controllers, similar again to mocap. The problem is, what you’re left with is a combination of Wii/Xbox Connect and a screen strapped to your head.

In the real world, you don’t think about moving or looking somewhere, you do it instinctively. Strapping a heavy, sweat inducing, screen to your face does not feel natural, and there is no way that swinging your head around is anywhere near as responsive or precise as either the real world or a mouse. Watch anyone play the same game with VR compared to a keyboard and mouse, and you will see how woefully inadequate VR control systems are.

Now, is that always going to be the case? If we go with the strap a screen to your face method, yes. Rather than VR, consider the possibilities of AR, Augmented Reality. Similar to the holodeck from Star Trek. It’s still in its infancy, but the possibilities there are considerably better than VR.

Anyway, it’s not your brain that is too slow to handle fast movements. Your brain does perfectly well in the real world. It’s that strapping a screen to your face and using your movement to control a game is inferior in every way to the system we have now with keyboard and mouse.

2 Likes
#12

I haven´t tested the VR hardware latest generation. I don´t know how disturbing, the thing on the head and in the head is… :slight_smile:

But I think playing KCD, the sword fights especially, with an WII controller or an PS move controller would be amazing…

#13

A lot of people think that. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be fun. It might be. That would be down to the individual. What I’m saying is that you wouldn’t have the same level of control that you have using pretty much any other control method, like keyboard and mouse, or gamepad.

In a competitive game, like a FPS, there is no way that VR style controls are even close to the level of accuracy and speed that a mouse has. The person in VR would get absolutely crushed.

The real problem I have with it though is sweat, exhaustion, muscle pain and nausea. Not everyone will experience those to the same degree, and some people, fortunately, don’t suffer from nausea at all.

#14

Sweat, exhaustion, muscle pain all seem perfectly reasonable responses to fighting hard with a longsword.

In real drilling you also get welts, and bruises fairly commonly, which wouldn’t be a thing in the virtual version.

#15

so far no one has beaten the “stab repeatedly” strategy. shield users, bowmen (well ok…bowmen when i stand with their arrow in front of my head stabbing at them rather than, say…side stepping) they just can’t seem to stop being stabbed repeatedly.

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