Finally, someone who understands what this thread is all about!
[Edit] That is, if he was being sarcastic.
This time it’s for real. Na shledanou!
Argument Clinic - Monty Python’s The Flying Circus - YouTube
I HATE the Bechdel Test. Sexism in reverse, because no one blinks at a couple guys sitting around talking about women. Or hell, even the idea of a movie where guys are either minor or non-existent.
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at what point did this thread turn from a discussion about story to a post-fest on sexism? it is a classic trope, the idea of a damsel in distress. it’s a legit question to ask about it. but some of the things brought up here have no place in the argument. if i was to reverse that 3-part rule, and have two dudes, who talk about not women, then first off i’d be hard pressed to find one, AND then i’d get castrated. it does no one any good to go to extremes like that. if it makes you feel better to defend sexism (which by the way, goes both ways) then there’s an insecurity in your life you should try to identify. I actually wanted to discuss what makes a good, compelling story when it comes to the idea of someone saving someone else (men save men all the time in movies, they save women too, and SHOCKS AND GASPS, women save men and other women in films, stories, etc) and if you base all of your “story knowledge” from Hollywood, then of course you’re going to have a very biased vision on what a good or bad story is. i read books, play games, listen to music, have read poetry, watched hollywood movies, watched indie movies, watched foreign films/shows, and then there’s a good old fashioned campfire. there are a number of ways to deliver a story, and so many avenues of approach in telling a particular story. i guess i understood what the OP was getting at, which was that it wasn’t as literal an observation as some have taken it to be. he hopes he doesn’t get the girl, cuz it’s kind of played out… but really it’s only played out in a superficial sense. getting the girl would be awesome, but it ALSO has to be worth it. she can’t be a vacuum of emotion or the biggest bitch in the world, because then you detach from the reason why he’s going after her. it’s a rare person who wants to be with someone who yells at them, condescends to them and generally just runs them into the ground on a day to day basis. and sadly the main reference brought up was hollywood where this is commonplace. so no, i don’t want to see Henry “get the girl” if she’s a crazy bitch and it means he’s ignoring or overlooking the woman who’s a better match. I’d rather there be struggle, understanding over time as they become closer, conversations that highlight the differences in them and their ability to compromise, and possibly an eventual moment of knowing on each side but having one or more obstacles in the way. at that point, those obstacles make sense and the need to overcome them has so much more weight than just “oh, i want you to do this for me, then i’ll tickle your pecker” also, this all assuming then Henry’s even interested in the ladies 
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And here we go again…
First, to avoid any misunderstandings, are you talking to @Senseless or to Sutton Hoo or to @Ambaryerno – or to all three of us? So I’ve briefly mentioned about the so-called “Bechdel test”… maybe it was a mistake. And that’s it. I’m not at all interested in a discussion about sexism. Period.
You mean, like this? Aren’t we all like this, even us males?
Marina and the Diamonds - “Primadonna Girl” (2012) - YouTube
Ditto!
perhaps i got carried away but i’ve seen way too many threads/forums degenerate and i wanted to point it out immediately. mostly i was referring to the bechdel test. i didn’t really see the point of bringing it up. because it really is just kindling for that kind of sexist argument. the whole point was to discuss relationships, and how finding one or having one be a large part of the story could be good or bad. and i know you’re OP @sutton_hoo, and that was where i found it odd you brought it up. the first response back from @Ambaryerno was immediately missing the point. anytime you put one sex above/below the other you’re going to get a reaction like that. it isn’t a bad thing necessarily, but there are plenty of other threads where this sort of thing is discussed. i was hoping to better understand what it is about a relationship, any kind of relationship, that makes it impactful in a story. that’s why i brought dragon age up. they have such good relationship building, and there’s also no boundary when it comes to “guy gets girl” your character, as a woman, or a man, can become entangled with either sex. again, the point being, gender doesn’t matter. I’ve recently been watching How to Train Your Dragon 2, and that’s not even a human-human relationship. Hiccup and Toothless are as close as two people can be, and it’s crushing when they’re separated, and it validates their strengths when they come back together. and all along their weaknesses are shown but they rise above them to overcome all obstacles. that’s the core of relationships, that’s the core of what i thought we were trying to discuss.
i didn’t mean to jump down your throat and if it came off harsh or something i apologize. i just didn’t see why it was brought up, or what benefit it served the current discussion.
and yeah, that primadonna girl is exactly the kind of thing i’m talking about. and no, we aren’t all like this, even males. wanting things is one thing. knowing you need to earn or achieve those things is another. wanting things when you know you don’t deserve it or haven’t worked for it is a social disease.
God damn, there was a scene with a woman helping our main character, the other noble mentioning her as a ‘’…goodly wench, hold on to that one lad’’ and people loose their shit as if they gonna get married or anything. You guys talking about crazy bitches, primadonna girls and other shit like that…People were raised differently 500-600 years ago, I dont think they had primadonna peasant girls. It just blows my mind that you guys MISSED something so important and started arguing about girl being crazy or other feminist bullcrap…
i was addressing the questions he asked and what he posted. please go back and re-read my posts because i also moved past that to point out what is actually important in a relationship. and you’re dead on right, in the 15th century there’s absolutely a difference in relationships. but also don’t kid yourself that there were noblewomen and others of elevated status who had privileged lives because of their birth and nothing more. and those women were oft to think they could get anything because their father was so-and-so. and their brother would kill them if any harm came to them. more than likely, since Henry is a blacksmith, the women he interacts with on a day-to-day basis are a bit more humble and understand the realities of the world. thus it would make for a more compelling relationship because they would understand each other better and yet would still be world’s apart, mostly because at that time the differences in social status between men and women were more substantial than they are now. there is a place in this discussion for the differences between men and women, but it also has to be put into context and not just thrown out there in a sexist argumentative kind of way. what we call sexist now was simply everyday understanding back then. and whether women found it to be an injustice in that time period is hard to tell, since those who were not in privileged positions likely couldn’t read/write. and men were the warriors 99.9% of the time, and since it was a harsh and unforgiving world men really did protect the women and children, from fucking monsters of men would didn’t care who they killed or were ordered to kill everyone in an area, for war purposes. those kinds of realities make for a far more compelling storyline other than “guy saves girl” and that’s what i was trying to point out and trying to get us back toward discussing. i didn’t miss anything, and if you actually read the posts you’ll see that what turned out to be a diversion around sexism has now brought us to a place where we can talk about it with some sort of context between the then and the now, because that’s the point. it isn’t sexism to state fact about the past, where men would have to protect and save their woman if anything happened. the reality of that world though makes it more desperate, less cut and dry, and raises the stakes as high as they can go if ever that scenario comes up. it isn’t some pre-determined “i have a weapon, i will win this fight and save the woman.” what if it isn’t someone attacking, but rather she gets sick? or a child they have is sick, and the woman is distraught and doesn’t want to live if her child doesn’t? how does the “guy get the girl” in that situation? those were the kinds of ideas i wanted to discuss here, and if you’d actually read my previous posts you’d realize that even when referencing sexism, i’m still trying to do it in a way that has context to it and not just throwing out keywords. i want an intelligent discussion, i want to know what scenarios surrounding this topic would be compelling to the other people who will play this game, i want to understand just what makes us all tick a little bit. sometimes a discussion ends up diverting, or we need to go through some sort of “bullcrap” to come back to the main point, and i’m willing to go through those diversions. @MINTEEER, you have every opportunity to try and do the same instead of basically insulting @sutton_hoo and myself. and how did we miss something so important, when we both clearly are pointing out the intricacies of relationships and why that’s so important to making this generalized topic of “guy gets girl” compelling? you focused on all of two statements we made and have blew it out of proportion. hell, i even apologized to the guy for being too strong about my own level of focus on sexism.
Yes…sorry, And now back to the main topic. But just how? Knowing history and the hierarchy, Henry would not be able to be with a noble woman without him being a noble, it would bring dishonor to the family of the woman. I just dont understand how you guys came to the conclusion that Henry will be in any sort of relationship. I agree with you about the high born women being spoiled because of their fathers brothers and all their admirers, personally I wouldnt want Henry to be forced in a relationship with anymore, I would rather have it done like it was in Skyrim, where the main character chooses to be with someone. But then again, there was no romance in Skyrim. If that would be the case, I would rather have it done like you said @hydronics311 where it builds up like a normal relationship making the bond between Us (players) and Henry and his woman stronger, therefore caring for her needs and riding day and night to protect her honour. I would rather have that, but probably, it wont be like that, maybe there will be no relationship.
EDIT@
And, nothing wrong with ‘‘Damsel in distress’’ If girl is beautiful and smart then why Henry wouldnt fall in love with her? Its male instinct to find the right woman, isnt it? Also if he already knows the girl, which he probably do, because when he wakes up she knows who he is. Personally I wouldnt be against that idea as long as its more immerse rather than ‘‘You saved me, lets get married’’
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hahahah love that comic strip. brillaint stuff!
i also wasn’t trying to say one way or the other that he WILL be in a relationship. it does seem like an added complication along with everything he’s dealing with. i think @sutton_hoo was hoping that if there was (and by the fact that she saved you, and the nobleman points out like you said “hold on to that one lad”) that there could be. romance is one of many things that can make a story more compelling to anyone because as you rightly said we’re all kind of looking for it.
i brought up the noblewomen because, and this might take a sec to fully explain so bear with me… Henry seems to have plenty of interactions with nobles. We see that in the livestream. this does not make him noble by any means. but others have pointed out on other threads that it is very much possible for man of his status to be elevated by helping the lord in a substantial way. one of the ways to solidify this sort of elevation would also be marriage, to a noblewoman (perhaps a lesser one or the 3rd daughter of a lord kind of thing.) i’m not saying this is going to happen, i’m just saying it is a possibility. and since Henry is most definitely trying to do something for his lord (hunt down the horse killers, find out more about Sigamund’s troops, we know he will help in sieges/battles) it stands to reason this could happen for him. in which case then there could be a dilemma of sorts, marry the nobles daughter to solidify knighthood/elevated status, or be with miller’s daughter. either will have blowback, the other nobles won’t appreciate an upjumped peasant, and the noble who elevated you might later despise you for turning down his daughter. once again, these are just hypothetical but they help i think to give context to the previous ideas. in which case his choices become crucial in opening up new story dialogues and causing consequences you can’t go back on. it would also create a sort another connection between the player and Henry if there was this choice to be made. or in the end, he shirks them both completely and dedicates himself purely to the noble/lord and his sole purpose is to the right the wrongs (his parents killed, sword lost, defending his homeland) and leaves the whole romance angle behind. i don’t think there’s anyone saying it’s going to happen, i think OP was more so saying he doesn’t want to see the story use the idea of “guy gets girl by saving her” as a crutch, especially given the realistic nature of the game and the absolute abuse of this trope over the years in more tradition films/games. i want struggle and purpose to these things, if they end up in the game, rather than as a go-to to try and make it compelling. and i can’t speak for @sutton_hoo but it sounds like he wants that kind of struggle as well instead of the more generic approach.
Wait, wait, wait… wait. Wait. Love can’t be “earned”.
You missed the point. It’s not about Henry falling in love or not. It’s about, what if Henry saves her but she’ll still reject him? A relationship is reciprocal. If he falls in love with her, that doesn’t guarantee that she’ll fall in love with him also. You forget the she also has a word to say in this. Maybe Henry will save her. Maybe he’ll “ask her out” (or court her). But then again, she might reply with “I’m sorry, but you’re not my type” or “I’m sorry, but I’m married!” Will Henry then regret that he has saved her? Because, you see, he didn’t really care about her, another person’s life or troubles – but was only interested in her as long as he thought that she’ll be interested in him.
And then again… if the “damsel in distress” is not so pretty and he isn’t romantically interested in her (that’s his right), and she’s also poor and can’t pay him, and there’s no one around to see the deed, will he just… walk by?
@sutton_hoo: Why not saving someone just for receiving gratitude, for doing the right thing? Why not working on a relationship built on trust and truth and not on love and sex?
For example: Imagine you save a rich person and that person will say: “Here take some of my gold!” If you answer “Ohhh YES gimme gimme gimme!”, he’ll most likely not give you much of this gold, because he then realizes that (his) money was your focus. If you answer “I didn’t do it for the money!” you might not get money at all, but trust, friendship, kindness… whatever. Maybe the reward will be even higher later on.
Just out of curiosity: Did you play the alpha?
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@YuusouAmazing,
I’m not sure if you’re saying “Why not…? Because it is better not to!”, which would be very… um… machiavellian (“Maybe the reward will be even higher later on”), or if your point of “Why not working on a relationship built on trust and truth…?” just repeats one of the main points of this whole thread, the other being how the relationship begins – with a lie or the truth? If a relationship is built upon a lie, can the rest be truthful?
Yes walk by why not? Why does men expect anything from a woman when saving her or helping her? I borrowed stuff to my lady friends, helped them out with stuff and didnt want them to repay me by having sex with me or dating me. If I wanted to, I would ask a girl out but not when I help her or something, no, just when getting to know her. I have a girlfriend but I didnt save her or help her, I just talked to her and asked her out. I dont understand the ‘‘are you a nice guy’’ thing, why wouldnt you be a nice guy? Being nice doesnt mean being Beta male. You can be nice and be Alpha male and get women. Its not about being a douchebag and getting slappers, (or maybe thats what you want then kudos to you). Speaking form my experience of life, Im nice and women are attracted to me. I have a douche friend and girls are attracted to him too, so whats the conclusion? Theres no right or wrong, but thinking that woman has to repay you with her body because you helped her is just a wrong way of thinking. Too much porn my friend, too much.
@Anna hasn’t replied to me…
But… why?
I’m such a… nice guy!
Ain’t I?
I’ve done all of this for her…
…
That… witch!
Frustrated, divorced, recently unemployed defense agency worker William ‘D-Fens’ Foster after his volatile trek across Los Angeles on foot:
Foster: I’m the bad guy?
Sgt. Prendergast: Yeah.
Foster: Hmpf… How’d that happen? I did everything they told me to. Did you know I build missiles?
Sgt. Prendergast: Yeah.
Foster: I helped to protect America. You should be rewarded for that. But instead they give it to the plastic surgeons; you know they lied to me.
Sgt. Prendergast: I-Is that what this is about? You’re angry because you got lied to? Is that why my chicken dinner is drying out in the oven? Hey, they lie to everybody. They lie to the fish! (Falling Down, 1993)
Because Alpha Update, man! We are working as crazy!
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Nice bird, by the way.
Thats not a reply to what I wrote, its just stuff from the internet
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