Layers of armour

Gameplay
#1

I am a wee bit disappointed in the layering of Armour. As best As I can tell, realistically speaking, a full blown Gambeson was it’s own armour. So was a Maille shirt. To wear a full gambeson under a Maille shirt was unneccessarily bulky, heavy and limiting motion. So under Maille, at best a verly lightly padded clothing was worn.

Similarly, putting a full Maille Shirt adds unneccessary weight and bulk, so a Plate Armour was worn with Maille sleeves only, or specific pieces of Maille Voiders in the vulnerable spots.

I wonder, if it would be possible, to lateron in a DLC or so give us Arming Doublets with Maille voiders under the Arms etc… Not as good as a Maille Shirt or Gambeson on their own, but just as much protection as both combined, when worn under Plate, but with much less weight etc… ?

#2

I think you have several misconceptions here…

The “light padding” you refer to was worn under all types of metal armor. In the Early Middle Ages, when there was only chainmail, such as knee-length, long-sleeve hauberks, the padding was called an “arming coat” and it provided one of 2 layers of defense. Mail is good against cuts (because it’s metal), meh against stabs (because the point of the weapon will usually fit inside one of the mail links) and utterly useless against impact (because mail is so flexible). So, the mail stops cuts, does some good against stabs, and the padding absorbs the blunt force impact and residual stab penetration.

When plate armor came along, the “arming coat” became the “gambeson” by the simple expedient of sewing small leather patches with dangling strings to it here and there. These dangling strings were for tying on various bits of both plate and chain armor. Plate, being rigid, is good protection against everything: cuts, stabs, and impact. But it isn’t flexible, so the joints still needed some chainmail bits here and there. thus, you might have a breastplate over the main torso with chainmail sleeves tied off at the shoulders and then perhaps various plate bits at the shoulders and elbows, also tied on to the gambeson strings. But some impact still gets through plate, especially where there’s not much space between it and your body, so you still needed padding under it to avoid serious bruising.

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#3
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#4

He is not wearing chain under his plate legs, but he mentions it.

#5

I wasn’t concerned so much with the precise nomenclature, which varied greatly back in the day and even today has collectors regularly at each others throats. It’s the general concepts.

Textile armour was, for the longest time, often worn as the only kind of armour, and a decent on protects surprisingly well. But the fabric armour worn as standalone armour tnded to be much thicker than that worn underneath other armour. As bulk is one thing that hinders movement, fabric armour worn underneath another sort is usually purpose made for that and thinne, lighter.

The overall idea is, that a full plate suit worn over a full chain suit worn over a full padded suit is more an RPG and fantasy idea, than a real one.

The late full plate suits, seem to have been worn with somewhat lightly padded undergarments, occasionally with bits of Maille attached to the areas where the plates did not fully cover it. In essence, to cut down unneccessary bulk and weight and restriction.

In KC:D it seems, as if the best thing to do is wearing three full suits of armour one over the other… textile, maille and plate.

#6

You would wear a gambeson under chain, which has 100% wrap around protection, under plate which had like 80-90% surface protection (obvious estimations, the point is that chaIn covers spots that plate didn’t like arm pit, shoulder socket back if no back play etc). Sure, the gambesons werent suuuuper thick but they were thick. You used a gambeson as padding and a way to evenly distribute the weigh…have you worn chain? Have you work a full chain mail shirt over just your skin or over just your shirt? It’s not comfortable.

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#7

chainmal mostly hangs from the shoulders and the belt. The thing is, Maille is flexible, but not unlimited flexibility. good Maille is tailored to the wearer. If the clothing underneath, i.e. padded stuff, is needlessly thick, you’d end up losing mobility.
And as per full palte, sure, it doesnt cover 100%, that’s where the PARTIAL Maille go into play. I.E. Maille Sleeves, or ‘Voiders’ sewn to the arming jacket under the arms etc.

as per shirt or skin. Only an idiot would were any armour over bare skin. That being said, the normal everyday clothing of times past usually was far more substantial than our modern thin T-Shirt. A full sleeved linnen shirt or under tunic, and over that usually a sturdy wool tunic, or in later times doublets etc. Most of these outer garments were made of strong cloth and lined. partially padded and doubled up for fashion etc.
By the 17th century the Armour for massed troops had evolves such, that the pieces of srmour did not need to be tied to a specially deviced under jacket, but rather were attached to each other…and commonly worn over the soldiers normal clothing.

The point being, a full suit of fully padded textile armour underneath a full suit of Maille, underneath a full suit of armour insn’t quite the way it seemingly was done ‘back then’

If you had only extile armour, it’d be purpose made and thick. If you wore Maille, the padded clothing underneath would’ve been purpose made and not as thickly padded as the former standalone stuff. And if you wore full plate, well you wouldn’t want to waste your strength carrying around superflous MAille, so you’d wear partial Maille Bits, over or attached to light padded clothing.

#8

I see. I got work to do.
Full mail shirts under full plate armour? Short answer, yes. My area of interest ends around 1500-1510. But throughout the 14th and 15th century you can find examples/sources where a full maille shirt is worn beneath a plate cuirass (breast- and backplate). For example the Battle of San Romano shows (probably) Niccolò da Tolentino as he got in an ambush. As time was spare he could only put on arms and legs. My guess is that he was already wearing the maille shirt and leg armour and only put on the arms. He doesn’t even wear a helmet! Putting on your arms can be done quite fast and they already cover rather important areas. In mounted combat a lot of the cuts are delivered towards the wrist for example. A lot of effigies from Italy show two layers of maille, especially around the groin. That prevents your enemy to stab you in the balls. Seriously, that 's why they did it. The point of a weapon can get through one of the layers, but getting through the second is really difficult. Doable, but difficult.

As for the, maille is wobbly and doesn’t help against blunt force. That 's simply not true. The biggest problem we have nowadays is that decent maille, like it was made centuries ago can no longer be bought. (Unless you pay >20.000€ for a shirt!) The indian maille does it 's job but is difficult to compare to their historical counterparts. The riveting is different, the material used is different, the relations between ring size and wire thickness are different, the entire construction of the garment is different.
As for the what to wear beneath maille. My arming doublet (1475) is made of three layers of linen. For 13th ct. a woll tunic is enough. At some point at the end of the 13th and the first half of 14th century you do read about thicker stuff. But we don’t really know what it looked like and how it was constructed. All those “Gambesons” were worn OVER the maille anyway…

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#9

When plate armor came along, the “arming coat” became the “gambeson” by the simple expedient of sewing small leather patches with dangling strings to it here and there. These dangling strings were for tying on various bits of both plate and chain armor.

The problem here is that we have not a single source talking about any leather stripes to reinforce an arming doublet. You see a lot of Re-enactors using them and a lot of Polish manufacturers that sell them, but we have literally NO evidence for leather. Every time the discussion starts anew someone brings paintings up from Italy, Burgundy and Portugal. Not noticing that NONE of the persons that can be seen is depicted in ANY military context. One guy is praying, the other one at some sort of meeting (clearly civilian, I don’t know what it is about), the other one is EATING. You don’t wear the stuff you wear beneath armour for eating. No one does. And the only thing you can make out are black stripes. Are they made of Leather? Linen? Silk? Wool? Barchent? Fur? Cotton? Really, they are just black. No evidence what so ever for leather stripes. Here those black stripes? Are they leather? Yes? Well, how do you know?

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#10

Here you can see someone getting armed. He puts his maille shirt one. That 's something you can call an arming doublet. The problem is that the depiction doesn’t really give away a lot of details. But one can clearly see that there are no leather straps!

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#11

Wearing a maille shirt under the cuirass was certainly done at this time period. If the game took place in 1470 Bavaria there would be an issue, but 1403? Not at all.

#12

I have little problems with the Full Maille shirt. But the full Maille legs under Plate Legs somehow bother me.

#13

you’re wrong there as well. i think it’s best to listen to what the historical sources say

#14

this late?

#15

ah one disagreement i have with your post is the stabbing poing
mail is just fine against stabs, theres a reason why estocs and other very pointy swords came up as compared to say the earlier viking era/migrational era swords that have slightly less pointed and sharpened tips

it would hurt to be stabbed because the mail would give way which is where the gambeson gives way

anyways good points good sir

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#16

I was about to suggest this video too!

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#17

Even for 1470 a full shirt would be just fine. The “Fußpfad zur ewigen Seligkeit” from 1494 shows a full hauberk with integral groin protection. That one was most probably worn beneath a cuirass. Keep in mind that, when you are in the field, you won’t be wearing your (full) armour all the time. So wearing a maille shirt as minimum protection is just fine. And it does not add that much weight compared to a pair of voiders that closes on the front and has an integral standard. I guess that the price also played a role when someone decided whether he should buy voiders or a full shirt…

As for the legs, full maille legs at 1403 are ok. They don’t show up very often but we can still find them at the beginning of the 16th century. Wearing full maille legs beneath (plate) greaves however does give rise to problems. Mostly the fact that greaves are very tight fitted and support themselves. Having a lot of maille around your lower legs will definitely pose problems when wearing the greaves.

#19

It was done in 1470, sure, but it was certainly less common for men at arms wearing plate to wear a full maille shirt in 1470 Germany compared to 1403. Even in 1470 Italy it wasn’t odd at all for Heavy Cavalry to wear a full maille shirt under their harness. The point I was trying to make is that is was more or less common depending on the time and region, and in 1403 Bohemia it wasn’t uncommon at all.

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