I reviewed Witcher 3 and hated the 3rd person combat as it was skillless, you did not need to aim your sword, you never miss. I am a huge fan of first person sword games such as Chivalry where skill is a huge factor in winning battles, same with Mount and Blade. I was told to check out Kingdom Come deliverance and have played around with the sword fighting tutorial and it left me very disappointed.
Why are we locked on to the target, this destroys immersion for me, what if 3 people are attacking me? Do I have to keep locking off and on to fight them? In games such as chivalry you can fight numerous opponents by skilfully blocking one, attacking another and moving your character carefully around.
Also mouse movements are very inaccurate when trying to aim to the diagonals of the little combat marker, it all feels like a stupid mini game and not a sword fight. Combos, yawn…here we go, lets have some combos. Why can’t we make up our own combos? In a real sword fight you don’t have special combos that do extra damage or always hit. In Mount and Blade style games I have all my own combos when I fight, they are just rotations of directional attacks with a few feigns thrown in which make it hard for the enemy to predict, this is how sword fighting is in reality, not like in this game.
I have not picked up a real sword in this game or had a real fight as the tutorial lock on mechanism has put me off playing any further as it’s just garbage so if this is only for the tutorial then fine but the way I see it, the combat is just a typical console lock on system with combos, ugh.
In Chivalry people quickly learn that they can drag attacks to speed up a weapon. By insane amounts. I saw a guy who blocked an attack aimed at his back to spin 180 degrees and perform a crouching overhead with his halberd in an instant. It looked and felt really stupid - like a Jedi, literally - but was very effective, and that’s how most of the combat looks like on high level.
Shields are awfully modeled too: it’s easy for an experienced player to bypass the blindspot and hit “through” the shield, despite the shield taking a lot of vision. You can even hit a knight hiding behind a tower shield by aiming at his foot…
You could say it’s skillful, but the execution is off-putting. They really need better animations and more sensible input sensitivity system to not allow for instant turns. In the end I played as a vanguard with a spear, because I couldn’t stomach how silly combat turned out to be.
Then you’ll probably lose. Let’s say three people equal to your strength want to beat you up in real life, how much time do you think you’ll have until you get pushed to the ground? That’s the moment when you’re basically dead in medieval fights if your enemies show no mercy.
The mouse wheel might be used to toggle between targets. It’s all early development, so it takes some time to figure out how to balance the fighting in general.
Yes, early development, needs improvement, the team knows about it already. With a dual-stick gamepad it’s more accurate.
Because of historical accuracy. Combos are pre-defined because of the existence of fencing books describing every single step and movement on how to riposte certain attacks and how to land effective combos.
So basically you’re saying “Hack and slash is the way to go”, right? How much do you know about medieval martial arts to come to that conclusion?
The locking is done on purpose. How else would you define the direction of your attack towards a body part of a single enemy? Maybe you can give some ideas on how you would handle it without locking and still have the same precision. Again the historical books define exactly each movement and which points of an enemy’s body you’re going to hit with certain combos or ripostes.
@YuusouAmazing The caveat about those fencing manuals is that the techniques and combos they present aren’t actually combos. They’re drills meant to demonstrate the principles BEHIND the techniques, and why certain moves work in certain situations. Actual combat would seldom play out EXACTLY as it’s written in the book simply because for every technique there’s multiple possible counters.
For example, let’s look at this play from Ringeck:
an opponent strikes at you with an Oberhaw
you respond by striking with a Zornhaw from your right, defending yourself against the Oberhaw
follow this by shooting the point to the face
if the thrust is parried, use “taking off above” to lift up and over his blade and move your blade to the other side of his blade
wind in with the point, and thrust
if the thrust is parried, strike the opponent’s legs
Each part in this play demonstrates a different technique or principle which can be executed AT ANY TIME so long as the conditions for it are met (IE many attacks that are parried could be countered by “taking off above”), and the purpose is to teach the fencer how to recognize them. It’s not a set “combo” that’s always executed together. It’s a teaching device.
No need to get all bitchy, am just stating my feedback on the combat.
Fighting 3 opponents in combat in a game is doable, in reality probably not unless the swordsman is very skilled and the three attackers are not so skilled.
Personally the thought of even using a controller for a first person game makes me shudder due to the fact the M&K is superior in every way. Controllers are very limited for a FPS game and that is a fact, this game gives me the impression that it is being designed for controllers due to the huge size of the console market as the combat is clearly designed for a controller, no one will ever convince me otherwise as it’s totally obvious.
So this leaves a big problem for PC gamers that are M&K users, it would be very easy to build a good sword game using M&K but this would not be very good on controllers. For example, get rid of the immersion breaking lock on system as that holds your hand too much by making moving easy as you always face your opponent. I want full control of my movement, I want to move in, out, left and right, turn left or turn right. A great move I use is other sword games is to actually turn to the right which looks like am fleeing then swing left using my body momentum along with the sword momentum (this is an actual RL sword move) and deliver a crushing side swipe to the enemy. How can you do this if you are locked into a silly side shuffle dance with the enemy?
A proper sword fight would give you 100% control of your character and maybe have options through bindings to hit high, mid, low, side swipe, down chop, thrust, then block high, mid or low, not just press and hold a block button which is totally unrealistic. I like the riposte bit where you time your block by watching the enemy swing, that is great but it’s about the only great thing in the combat, the rest is just typical controller casual fighting, holding your hand in a lock on dance as you spam combos…very disappointed.
Not sure where you got “Hack and slash” from but that does actually describe a lot of how medieval sword fights were, I think you are maybe confusing the middle ages with Olympic fencing
At the end of the day I can’t see why Chivalry style combat can not be expanded to incorporate more attacking and defensive moves, it works great, feels great and requires precision, skill and good coordination. Get rid of combos, lock on and lets have some proper skill based combat, not hand holding where the game does half of it for you bull crap, I want full control, that means I face who I want, I move where I want I control it all, not half of it.
But the steps for each part of the attack is described in the books. Yeah, of course there are millions and trillions of ways to handle situations during a fight depending on the position and stance of both fighters. Do you want to teach the player all those possibilities?
I was referring to those combos as a vital part of the combat system and the research that’s being done for this game. You can’t implement so many combos unless you make generic hack’n’slash’n’stab combos like in M&B. IMHO M&B lacks of fluent movements compared to KCD, which is the big difference I see in the combat system for combos.
Sorry if I sound too bitchy, but I’ve played M&B WB for hundreds of hours and there are some things like misinterpreted collision detection that are really annoying (not only in M&B). Did you notice in KCD’s combat system that you’re not able to attack from certain directions when you’re next to a wall or fence and that the same situation applies to your opponent? I haven’t seen that properly implemented in any game so far.
Also the combat in M&B is unbalanced. Mounted units are far more effective than any other foot soldier. Maybe the Nord Huscarl is a proper foot soldier when he throws his axes, but that’s about it. With 70 Swadian Knights you can kick 150 butts.
So a game focused on realism is not a game anymore, because it’s too realistic. That’s how I understand you.
Which you can do by pressing Shift.
I might have some bad memory but according to my gameplay experience M&B has a block button and you have to move your mouse to the right direction to get a proper blocking … let me rephrase that: according to my gameplay experience KCD has a block button and you have to move your mouse to the right direction to get a proper blocking.
I don’t see the problem here. Sometimes I don’t understand why people hate a mechanic in one game without hating the same mechanic in another game.
Spam combos? Really? I have yet to see someone spamming combos and getting it right every single time without losing any stamina.
I just watched some Battle of the Nations fights and in these 5v5 and 21v21 it’s all hack and slash as you need to get the opponent on the ground with 3 points of his body touching the ground. But in the 1v1 every hit counts so you need proper techniques for blocking, parrying and riposting attacks. Then you need to be aware that every wrong move, every imbalance in your stance can mean your death in the battlefield. If you miss your target, you’ll get into a disadvantage. Stability and fluence is important in the battle. Just take a look at the asian martial arts, it’s all about movement and concentration. Just “hacking and slashing” with your hands doesn’t guarantee you a hit.
Plus in a duel it’s getting personal, in a mass battle you’re one of many. Nobody can save you in a duel, but somebody will save you in a mass battle when you need help.
Nobody forces you to use them (you can wait in the tutorial some time to skip that part).
Ohh yeah, at the Gamescom the players were all fighting flawless and were absolute pros just like in M&B… I’m kidding, there’ve been some people not making it through the parrying tutorial stage and said it’s too challenging for them. So if your before-mentioned one-button-solution would be applied
this game would play like a 2D fighting game: Left+High Slash - Right+Low Slash - Stab -> FATALITY … yeah such games need skills as well, but different skills.
mount and blade and chivalry had really unrealistic non historic fighting. it had all the finesse and complexity of two 5 year olds beating on each other with foam bats.
i’m rather glad combat resembles the fechtbuchs and not another clone of the abstraction created by an independent developer some years back, which seemingly has never been improved or even iterated on much afterwards. same 4 direction slash and one stab.
Having played M&B, Chivalry and this I have to say the most realistic is Chivalry & M&B simply because they give you 100% control of your character, am sorry but the fact you are “locked on” to your opponent totally rules out any kind of realism in this game. If I were to have a mock sword fight right now I am not locked into a stance with my opponent.
Also Chivalry is an old game, but it had a good base combat system, why not just take that and build upon it. I will tell you why, it’s because this game is being designed for consoles first and PC second, any experienced gamer can see this in the combat mechanics. Can you imagine controller players trying to play chivalry? they would be massacred, they need “lock on” this is why pretty much every console game has “Lock on” and it’s why this game has it too.
I already showed you a better way of having the sword combat that requires a hell of a lot more skill than the current mess, but it’s not going to sit well with controller players as you need precise aiming with your sword at the same time as precise footwork and you can’t do that on a controller without…“Lock on”
Each of the plays in a manuscript requires specific actions from BOTH parties. As in the example I posted:
Opponent attacks
Counter with zornhau
Follow zornhau with thrust to the face
Opponent parries
"Take off above" and place your sword on the other side
Wind into Ochs for a thrust to the face
Opponent parries
Wind to another opening
This is NOT a combo. At least it’s not in the traditional gaming sense of chained attacks. It’s a sequence of actions on the part of BOTH COMBATANTS, meaning the actions of the opponent are just as important. The ONLY way this exchange could work in the game is if upon execution of the combo the AI opponent is ALSO scripted to follow through with it.
Try playing one of the mods that allows you to form pike squares.
Cavalry in Mount and Blade is so overwhelmingly dominant for the exact same reasons Medieval cavalry was so overwhelmingly dominant in REAL LIFE; when you’re fighting a disorganized rabble with no semblance of formation, cavalry will DESTROY infantry.
However play one of the mods that introduces pike squares and other formations, and you’re going to see a RADICAL difference in cavalry’s effectiveness.
In real life you have total control of your body, and can innately intuit what your body is doing. In a game, you have to do it with mouse and keyboard, and have no real sense of how you’re moving. “Locking on” is a mechanic that compensates for what you can do naturally in real life but can’t do in a game.
Perhaps instead of hard-locking an opponent we should be able to target him and change target on the fly? Kind of like For Honor (or Dark Souls, if you’re more familiar that title) did this?
Here you can see two knights going against a single samurai, who is then joined by another samurai. Look how the attacked samurai blocks the blow from the side and then how the knight blocks and switches to the second samurai warrior who came from behind him to support his comrade.
If we can get this level of switching in KC:D I will be happy. When fighting multiple opponent it’s important to be able to switch targets when needed. However, good switching targets on keyboard and mouse is harder than on gamepad and we already have to use mouse for directions… Maybe use Q and E instead (to switch target to the left and to the right)?
agree with op. Combat feels awkward with m&kb. Just played through tutorial and I’m more confused than when I started. Half the moves didn’t make sense to me and the timing seems a bit off. of course I got my ass handed to me in the final because the tutorial proceeds even if I didn’t master the moves. And hint boxes didn’t help at all.
So one, I don’t think anyone has been “bitchy” toward you, your OP comes off as pretty rude for “just stating my [your] feedback” so you can expect some harshness in return. But I digress. The whole point of this game is to be realistic, so if you can’t take three people in real life, guess what?..
That being said, I’m sure the devs will appreciate your feedback regardless of it’s tone and they’ll work on the technical parts that need polishing. You’re looking at an alpha game here, you can’t expect all the control types to be fully fleshed out and polished. These things take time and they take iteration. And they will be polished to a point where they feel good, fluid, and well implemented. And again about the combat, think realism, I doubt you’ll be fighting three guys Matrix style anytime soon. They’re going for depth of combat, each fight should be the fight of your life (how it is in the real world). No fight is of small consequence and there is no such thing as, “well I’m just such an amazing swordsman”. When another man draws a sword on you, that’s a serious fight not to be brushed off. Games like Assassins Creed and the Witcher turn you into this epic master god of fighting, it’s fun but it lacks substance, depth, and consequence. KC:D is trading “god like aura” for interesting gameplay with depth and stakes.
Anyhow, if you’re not interested that’s cool, this is a pretty niche game and it won’t appeal to everyone, it’s not supposed to appeal to everyone, so if you’d prefer you can continue to play Mount and Blade (a great game) while waiting for Mount and Blade 2: Bannerlord (which I’m sure will also be a great game). That or simply wait for a more polished Beta or final release.
Whatever you choose, all the best and thanks for giving KC:D a shot!
[quote=“YuusouAmazing, post:6, topic:24210, full:true”]
Did you notice in KCD’s combat system that you’re not able to attack from certain directions when you’re next to a wall or fence and that the same situation applies to your opponent? I haven’t seen that properly implemented in any game so far.[/quote]
Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 DNDR and if i’m not totally wrong, it is integrated into Chivalry.
And myself agreed to the comment about controllers…
After several playthrough, i hate the lock mode too!
I’m not able to win a match against the heavy plate soldier.
(Only with a XBox Controller?)
i can win just fine with mouse and keyboard… just forget about trying to make combos work, parry and try to get individual hits in at first, later when his stamina is low you can simply bash him down.
Chivalry proved that you don’t need “Lock On” you get total control of your character, all they needed to do with this game here is add a few more moves to an already brilliant control system. They are doing “Lock on” purely for controllers, it’s the way of everything nowadays. This is why we get so many crap games because the controller is a terrible control device, it limits gameplay drastically as I found out while playing this tech demo.
I do hope the devs have a rethink on the controls of the game but am not holding my breath, consoles compatibility always wins over gameplay.
Actually as far as I know, this hard locking is not intended to stay till main game. It is there due to some unfinished limitation in the code (They mentioned it when alpha 0.4 was released). Your main gripe with the system is not shouldn’t stay and is there only because there were some problems they didn’t manage to solve. Actually the locking is lot worse AFAIK on mouse and keyboard (on controller you can easily unsnap from the lock). It is not a feature, only leftover because with no lock they weren’t able to animate the attack properly, yet.
I guess the biggest problem would be to get the collision detections right when you can move around freely and therefore stand in different angles to the opponent every time.
I don’t like the locking, too, but when you don’t want the blade clipping through armor … Well, maybe they’ll solve it somehow.
Why not get rid of “the combat stick man” (or the combat wheel) and allow the game to use mouse pointer as an indicator where you want to attack/parry when playing with the mouse and keyboard? With this method we kill two birds with one stone: we have free aim in combat and we can easily control where we are aiming.
