Playable female characters

Gameplay
#101

the basic premise of this debate is pretty similar to the dismemberment debate. in that its occurrence in combat would have been so low, to avoid its depiction would be less aesthetically jarring than to include it.

but since people keep dismissing the above point, i give a more abstract argument regarding historical consistency and the inherent contradiction of fictional female warriors…a fair description of the protagonist henry would be a blacksmith who was levied, served with distinction enough to be granted certain honors or rewards, then discharged and returned to his old life. this was commonplace and ordinary so it wouldn’t be problematic if such a person were forgotten by history.

but the same “historical consistency” thought experiment breaks down for a fictional girl soldier. a girl soldier who distinguishes herself on the battlefield certainly would have been a big deal and sparked controversy, why was she not recorded in history? not a single trace or reference to speak of?

this is why it makes greater sense if fictional female protagonists are not modeled after exceptions and rarities, but on more “typical” or repeating examples where the absence of their mention in history books would be perfectly normal and consistent with history and reality. this is the point about realism…modeled after reality.

2 Likes
#102

Hi,
I just stumbled over Kingdome Come and I was really excited. I love sandbox games and I’m a real history nerd, so naturally a realistic medieval sandbox game appeals to me. I got even more hooked when I learned the developers seem to be just as disgusted by anachronisms than I am.
Then I learned there was no female character option.
The story of a Marty-Stu blacksmith-son that becomes knight, thief, alchemist, bard, assassin etc. is not less unrealistic than a woman facing the same situation and dressing up as a boy to do the same things. I like to read medieval literature (not ABOUT those times but FROM those times) and I honestly see no problem with that option.
The good thing about that solution would be that the story-line can remain largely the same for both modes.
As to why I want to play as a woman:
Because if “it doesn’t matter as what one plays” would really be true, there wouldn’t be a large majority of games where the protagonist is male & caters to male identification fantasies. In my opinion Mount&Blade solved the situation just perfect. I can play as a woman, but the game gets more difficult. Which makes it more fun. I don’t object to playing a male character, I enjoyed Assassins Creed II very much. But then again Assassin’s creed is more linear than Fallout or Elder scrolls games and doesn’t offer the extensive personalization options that most sandbox games have. So I didn’t feel overlooked, but in the same boat as the people that wanted Ezio to sport a mohawk (same with Overlord, Risen II etc). But if there ARE choices for real personalization in a game, to feel a deeper connection to the character and to make its story YOUR story, then I feel cheated if I can decide that the character should have a very specific beard, clothing style and marry person x but not on whether or not it has a penis or vagina. Sometimes I play male characters for role-play reasons, so I’d maybe even pick the male character, but I’d love to have a choice. One CAN say “but chinese/black/aborigine didn’t live in medieval Europe, so should they complain, too?” The answer is no. But women did live in that time&place, and that is the difference. All hero stories are unrealistic to a certain extent, that is why we like them. And that tiny scrap of unrealism that a female disguising as male would add is really not worth worrying about (after all that happened quite some times). And saying “i’d really love, love, love, love to be able to play as a woman for the following reasons” is not “complaining”, but making use of the offer that we players can voice our wishes.
As to the customer number reasoning: To me it is no question that large % of RPG players are female. I know so many. Indeed more men would refrain from buying a game in which they’d have to play a fully clad, average looking female character than women would refrain from buying GTA V because of the characters. But that doesn’t mean it has no effect on potential female customers. I for example have a long list of games I want to play and not much time. So whether or not it offers a female character option does play into my consumer decisions regarding non-linear sandbox RPGs.

See you in the next Tournament,
Xerina

3 Likes
#103

The Difference between our lowborn blacksmith and a lowborn female
Lowborn males getting knighted happened. Not often, but it happened.
Females getting knighted for valor on the battlefield… I don’t know of any.

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#104

Well I dont dislike it in terms of the gender. If they would want to make a main character woman, they could. Oh shut up with the constant realism, so they would create another Joann of Arc. It would be a much more interesting story in some cases.(dealing with the standards of that time)

I dont like it, because I dont necessary want to have an incomplete side story which doesnt keeps you invested in the character. It seems to me like they are doing it for the sake of gender equality and try to please the woman audiance for the sake of dodging some gender un-equality bullets american press has sure stored for these types of games.

On the other hand, if that only clarifys the relationship with the main character, what she went through when he was abducted (for example) and then she will be joining the hero as a companion. That would surelly added another layer of depth to the story.

1 Like
#105

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding and it’s mutual. :slight_smile:

First- by stating that there are not many sources, I definitely didn’t mean the entire 15th Century, but the very particular time (and place) where the story of KCD seems to be taking place (approximately the decade around 1403). This truly is an area almost unnoticed in old chronicles or other sources. Aside from the fact that the king was captured, his eventual return to the throne and a civil war ravaging the Czech lands, there is little we know about what was really actually happening there. Which, logically makes it a good setting for a possible piece of historical fiction, be it a game, novel, etc.

It’s not something I’m just saying out of my own ignorance. This is what Dan Vávar himself more or less discovered while doing his historical research for the game. A few weeks ago I found a link to a discussion about Wenceslaus IV on a Hussite history forum (in Czech language), where he discussed the given period of time with people concerned and knowledgeable about these times. What I just wrote down roughly summarises what that discussion eventually came to.
Sorry, my bad, I should have mentioned this as well.

That female alternative that you’re all asking for is a nice idea, but for a different sort of game and most of all, a different sort of story. It could also be a historically based game like KCD is, but it would have to be placed in a time and circumstances were a similar sort of character would be expectable and wouldn’t stick out from its setting.

In the circumstances of Czech 1403 and the particular events KCD is going to follow, a commoner girl becoming a fighter, then a soldier, then probably a knight, then possibly even a noble while helping to save her king, get his ass back on the throne and help him stabilize his land, that would stick out from its setting like the Eiffel Tower does from the landscape of Paris. A feat like that would definitely not go unnoticed, even if you tried to cover it up storywise with some disguise excuse.

A hypothetical son of a blacksmith going a similar path to knighthood or whatever is a thing that probably wasn’t happening regularly every year around that time either, but over the course of whole past 2000 years something like that must have happened at least 100 times more often. And most importantly, for some man (no matter where he came from) to play a part in events of this scale, that was nothing much to write a chronicle about at that time. Including a woman instead, it damn would be.
Henry being a son of a blacksmith doesn’t even matter in this discussion as an argument, this is purely a story-developing decision, which explains his ability to craft his own equipment himself while doing no harm to the overall authenticity of the concept (smithing is something of a science by itself and takes years of hard training).

This whole issue is not about if a woman is really capable or totally incapable of something like this. She very well may be.
But a story of a man going a similar way happened roughly by 80% in history and by 20% in fairytales. A story of a woman going this way is some 20% of history and 80% of fairytales.
This game is supposed to be a historical fiction, which doesn’t equal a fantasy or a fairytale. It’s going to sum up a fictional variant of quite possible real-life experiences of probably several real-life men into the story of one single man. This much can be taken for granted. Anything else, including any involvement of women in the matter, is nothing more than just a wild guess.

P.S.:
You mentioned something about “amazons” on the Czech history. Well…
We do have a legend dated around the 8th Century about a group of former companions of the late wife of the then Czech ruler, duke Přemysl. When his wife and co-ruler, dutchess Libuše died, her female company (something similar to ladies-in-waiting) rebelled against the idea of men seizing all the power, supposedly formed a millitant group which occupied a castle of their own and were said to wage a universal war on all men. Didn’t last very long though, as after commiting some atrocities on a number of really unlucky guys who fel into their hands they were eventually obliterated due to one of them falling in love with a man…
But this is stil nothing more than just a legend with very little historical evidence.

P.S.2: Aside from the “shut up with the constant realism”, Gladix is making a very good point.

1 Like
#106

I’m not all that bothered with no choice. One VO, one story. As one other player mentioned, the faceless, voiceless, flat personality just doesn’t work for some people. It especially doesn’t work in a story driven game.

And then you have mods. For those that have Skyrim, go look up “Inigo” and cry and weep and laugh at the amazing addition that this one follower makes. Unlike vanilla, he comments on the things you carry, the quests you’ve done, he reads to you, sings songs… I forget what else but my only hope is that we’ve snagged a few moders with amazing talents like that.

This is not a worry.

1 Like
#107

I was going to leave this thread as I felt that the discussion would not get farther and I felt like I’ve pretty much made my point. But you make a consistent argument, and you most of all are civil about it which I really appreciate.

I agree there was some misunderstanding, but I think most of all it comes down to difference in opinion of what constitutes historical fiction, and a differing opinion on the chronicling habits of medieval contemporaries.

Regarding the chroniclers, I wrote in my first and second post in the thread about why many contemporary chroniclers would probably tone down the role of women. There will be some repetition of what I have said earlier. I am sorry about that, and I hope you will read earlier posts for an expanded discussion about these ideas.

Sylvia Frederico says:
“Medieval women were seen by contemporaneous chroniclers and later historians as housewives and mothers and not deemed political. If their role in the conflict had been more widely recognised, the revolt might have seemed more trivial[…]”

This particular quote is about a rebellion, true, but this would apply equally to other conflicts, be they physical or philosophical, id est in war or in religious conflict. What we have to remember is that in the medieval times, the absolute majority of those who were articulate enough to record their ideas for later generations were nobility and clergy. The clergy were most often celibate. The nobility was a very narrow caste of society that could afford to treat women as mere assets to serve their land. Thus, it is safe to say that most of what is now accepted in the public sphere as the medieval role of women comes from the classes least familiar with womankind as a whole.

Later historians also being widely chauvinistic, as I also explained why in greater length earlier, has not helped with reporting and especially spreading the stories of those still not few records we have. To a large extent, the purpose of their research was to build up a national identity for the then new idea of that people within a country was part of a community consisting of more things in common than paying taxes and sending soldiers to the same king. This constituted educating the people into what they thought of as good citizens, and this in turn led to them searching for and interpreting material in a way that fit with this goal and this goal included, what was to them, the natural order of gender roles, reinforcing the ideas of the historical minority of the articulate upper class. Even then there were of course exceptions, and there are works from 18th, 19th and early 20th century which criticise this, but they, as you probably know, never reached the masses.

Heh, seems I got a bit carried away on the politics of cultural heritage. Sorry! I recommend Hobsbawm’s, Harrison’s and Anderson’s books on the subject if anyone’s more interested. Still, it is important to recognise these above things when speaking about gender through history.

But to continue, the Amazon example was not meant as historical proof of actual Amazons in 12th century Czech, it was to show that strong women were part of Bohemian folklore, something you also support, and as such it was not an unthinkable idea to all people at the time. Klassen goes on to showcase several women who both discreetly and openly challenged the patriarchal order in 15th century Bohemia, and some men who recognised their strife.

This leads me to what is probably the core of our disagreement.

“This game is supposed to be a historical fiction, which doesn’t equal a fantasy or a fairytale.” Our ideas of historical fiction obviously clash. My idea of historical fiction is a fiction well-grounded in actual historical research, but it is still a “what if” scenario. Historical fiction is not a historical lecture, and Warhorse themselves has been quoted with saying as much. That they responded earlier in this thread and said that a female protagonist is a possibility and that the story could be similar shows that they probably share the idea.

If KCD was an attempt to make a game about an actual series of event happening to an actual character that we had documentation about, I wouldn’t argue. But as you said, “It’s going to sum up a fictional variant of quite possible real-life experiences of probably several real-life men into the story of one single man. This much can be taken for granted.” Through this thread, I have shown several examples of women whose stories could well make for a very exciting combined fiction, and there are even more to choose from in and outside of the period. This, combined with the religious tension between Hussite reformation ideas and the Catholic church in the setting, local folklore of maidens of war and the sources we have from that very area in Europe of women involved in movements or personal battles to better their lot in life strengthens the credibility of the story.

Am I saying it happened? Did a woman live a life of adventure in 15th century Bohemia and get involved in a kingdom-wide conspiracy? Probably not. But neither was king Wenceslaus rescued from his captor; he was released. So could it have happened? Yes, and I base that on all the above and more. That is what differentiates historical fiction from fantasy in my view. King Arthur getting a sword from a lady in a lake is fairytale. Frodo and the gang destroying the One Ring is fantasy. A story where King Godwin did not get an arrow in the eye and won the war against William the Bastard in 1066, that would be historical fiction. A story based on the facts presented before about women in the medieval age and politics and culture in Europe and specifically Bohemia? That would be historical fiction in my world, as both the setting and the character has support in history, even if those particular events didn’t unfold in exactly that way in real reality. That there are no chronicles about the particular event in the specific area the game is taking place does not make in unrealistic, it just makes it fiction.

1 Like
#108

Oh just to correct you with harold getting an arrow to the eye, i think they provided that did happen but it didn’t kill him, he was cut down by a Knight.
Also Harold would never have won his army wasn’t as well trained, was exhausted and didn’t have cavalry and didn’t follow orders.

Basicely id rather them finish what they got now and if you want a female wait for a moder to do it for you or something

#109

You’re right about the arrow. There are accounts of both, but Knights seem to be the general consensus. But that Harold could never have won? That’s quite a claim. Had his forces not already fought Hardrada, he might have stood a chance, and any number of coincidences could give him the victory. William being shot, or dying from illness. But take this example I just thought up, then; William arrives before Hardrada. William still defeats Godwinson’s forces, but Hardrada arrives shortly after with a fresh army. In the ensuing battle, Hardrada actually defeats Williams exhausted army, and suddenly we have a Norwegian nobility in England instead of a Norman or Anglo-Saxon.

This didn’t happen. But it is a possible enough event to not be fairytale or fantasy. It doesn’t take away the point of the paragraph, but thank you for correcting me anyway!

Again, no one’s arguing that they should change it now. They have stated they won’t and why in this thread. And I am certain a modder will do it, or maybe I’ll make it myself. My hope is that they’ll consider it for future games in the series, as I think that story would be very interesting, and it’d help with public perception of history.

#110

Just thought I’d drop into this overly long thread and add my favorite warrior woman: Khawla Bint al-Azwar. She fought in several battles between Muslims and Byzantines in the 7th century. She is said to have once killed 5 Byzantine knights with a tent pole. She is highly regarded in Islamic society and has a unit of the Iraqi Army named after her as well as many schools.
Exceptional people do exceptional things. Most blacksmiths in the middle ages didn’t influence the course of history. Most women in Muslim society didn’t put on armor and pick up swords to fight against Christians. Most sons of jewish salesmen don’t grow up the change our fundamental understanding of the nature of the cosmos. Most of us live normal unexceptional lives. Warhorse has decided to make a story about an exceptional blacksmith who happens to be male. Since this is fiction this exceptional blacksmith could have been female but they chose not to tell that story. While I find it unfortunate that they don’t have the resources to tell the story of a female blacksmith influencing history, I do understand they have limited resources. Maybe they’ll give us some of their tools and allow this community to work on telling that story ourselves.

3 Likes
#111

What I read was, “I don’t know of something having happened, so it must not have happened.” Not a viable argument by any means.

#112

The other side hasn’t exactly made “viable” arguments either

#113

If you don’t think so, then I don’t think you’ve read the entirety of the thread so I won’t bother copy-pasting

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#114

If you think people grasping at straws, struggling to prove some rule that doesn’t exist is a real argument than, I’m sorry you think so.

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#115

and you and others are stil not willing to accept that fact that the number of lowborn males who was knighted for doing a service to their king is huge compared to the number of lowborn females who did.

A lowborn blacksmith that becomes a soldier is not exceptional.
A lowborn female blacksmith who became a soldier is already very exceptional. Even before we look at what the character do in the story.

Then add the fact that what you are describing “happened” 700+ years from the time of the game… and in another part of the world.(that is, outside Catholic Europe) Both facts makes it rather irrelevant.

5 Likes
#116

Sorry if I missed this point earlier but I thought it worth mentioning that regardless of people’s personal views it is Warhorse’s decision. This game is a piece of art and its content is dictated by the artist(s). If Warhorse want to tell the story of Henry the Bohemian Hero then they can. Just like the CDPR folks want to tell the story of Geralt of Rivia and no one else.

#117

Actually this can be in some cases perfectly valid argument. Especially if the person saying this explored the topic and the “something” in question being rare event in best circumstances (peasant/blacksmith being knighted) and as well something newsworthy (woman knighted for battlefield valor - I have difficulties to imagine no one recording this). The woman would be a piece of legends. Blacksmith can go unnoticed.
I would like female character, but fully understand that if they want to integrate the story into historical settings and use the fact that this period is relatively undocumented that it is “safer” and more realistic to use male protagonist. Not because female couldn’t do something similar at all, but because female couldn’t do something similar and remain undocumented.

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#118

Your argument is more reasonable, but still fallacious because as already posted above, things of that nature did not go undocumented. The precedence is there, but if the game is to be played with 100% historical accuracy then the developers would esssentially be basing the plot off history books, and adding in their own embellishments to provide flavor to NPC/player interactions. Since it is a game, it will not be 100% historically accurate. Maybe around 50-60%. The accuracy lying in combat, setting, and technology, and the remaining 40-50% being in the storytelling.

1 Like
#119

I study medieval archaeology with a main interest in the military side of things. Iam also a strong supporter of females in the military today. So females that fight is a topic i do have an interest in.

Iam in no way an expert on this, but I have read a text or two about this. And I would love it if somebody could find a text that tell about a female that is taught fighting during her upbringing.(from catholic europe and from about this period)

My point it It is not that hard to find cases of Female Nobles who was leaders of factions in a war. I also know of cases of female nobles actually leading their troops.
But I don’t know of any where a lowborn female learns to fight during her upbringing and then becomes a successful soldier. And if this happened just like lowborn males sometimes was knighted, then surely we would see it mentioned in the sources…

So if you think this happened, then please provide a source.

4 Likes
#120

I feel that you are arguing about something else than I am.
What I understood about the time period @warhorse chose is that due to civil war there is not many documents writing about this time period. That makes the historical fiction easier. Blacksmith having adventures being involved in the war being knighted is not important enough to be recorded and therefore his story can be considered accurate even if we don’t have any documents about it.
For female I am not saying (and no one here I hopeis) such story is completely impossible. But there are no records of anything like that and this period is not undocumented enough for something like this to pass any notice. As you said it was documented, but in different periods and places (and as @ThomasAagaard said not for commoners)
Story of realism I believe warhorse is shooting for could not be about fighting with female protagonist. The story must thread the thin line of not important and unique enough to end in history books, but important enough to keep our interest.

Were the story set cca 20 years later and you were some fighter in Hussite camps, I would say that there is more of a chance of encountering fighting women. There are documents and legends of some unconventional tactics employed by Hussite women in battles.

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