Presenting the cumans

Story & Setting
#1

There are two things I´m not sure if they are accurate:

– 1. The look.
I know the beta is WIP, the models and faces are not finished, but consulting the Wikipedia:

The Cumans were reported to be handsome people with **blond hair, fair skin and blue eyes, and desirable women

– 2. The „evilness“.
In the beta they are the bad guys. They attack „on sight“. The cumans are shown as wild, aggressive and dull. Without exeception! More like animals. Is this a bias?
I hope we will see also another side of the cumans, in the full game. With a little more backround of the cuman culture. Maybe a mission where a cuman saves Henrys life.

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#2

I too was curious about these Cumans… and taken straight out of that Wikipedia article;

“By the 15th century, the Cumans were permanently settled in Hungary, in villages whose structure corresponded to that of the local population, and they were Christianized…The Cumans served as light cavalry in the royal army, an obligation since they were granted asylum. Being very fierce and capable warriors (as noted by Istvan Vassary), they had an important role in the royal army. The king led them in numerous expeditions against neighbouring countries…”

So we assume they came with Sigismund, when he invaded Bohemia. Which led me further down the rabbit hole…

“In 1401 Sigismund helped an uprising against Wenceslaus, during the course of which the Bohemian king was taken prisoner, and Sigismund ruled Bohemia for nineteen months. He released Wenceslaus in 1403.”

More specifically the autumn of 1403; “Lord John of Liechtenstein, with his retinue of knights, successfully freed Wenceslaus from his Vienna prison in autumn of 1403 and accorded him refuge in his Moravian castle. John of Liechtenstein was at the time the Lord of the Mikulov demesne.”

So sets the scene really nicely for Henry to be involved with the rescue during 1403. However as this rescue is staged in Vienna, we know for certain that it will not occur during the events of the first Act.

Makes me think that Act 1 will be set in 1401 to align with the Sigismund invasion of Bohemia and subsequent dethronement / imprisonment of Wenceslaus.

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#3

I believe that a truely christianized Cuman wouldn’t attack a priest, monk or anybody else who is under the protection of the church.
Even King Sigismund would not easily order to mistreat the church, because if the Pope would notice this. Sigismund had to fear excommunication, so all oaths he received in the name of God where like nonexistent.

#4

You mean that soldiers of invading army that are dispersed all over the land, whose only way of survival is to take away anything and everything from the locals and who by the law may and should be killed on site should be more friendly?

#5

A good point, but WH wants to be historically accurate.To show a complete “nation” as murder and even worse is not the right way. In every war of aggression the soldiers do cruel things. Allways! In every army of the world! Soldiers and “bandits” in general are never innocent. But there are also exceptions.
I only want that WH shows also the “other” side of the cumans, some “good” people, their culture and their way of life,
Everything else would not be correct.

#6

I think you fail to understand that there is no complete Cuman nation in the game. There are foreign raiders. The kind of men who don’t have much holding them back home and who decide it is a good idea to join the army to slit some throats abroad and bring some goodies back home.

I think that you are too much of a romantic.

#7

If Christianization is THE criterion for a conflict, why we had WW1 or WW2. Religion is one aspect, but I think it´s more a political decision.

I think at this time we had two or three different popes, so I think there was not “the church”, and this leads into the Hussit Wars. But maybe I´m wrong.

#8

Maybe. :smile:[quote=“snejdarek, post:6, topic:28060”]
I think you fail to understand that there is no complete Cuman nation in the game.
[/quote]

But the game (beta) makes a differnce between bandits and “The Cumans”. The beta shows the bandits more civilized (not attacking everyone) than the cumans.
That´s the thing I want to make clear.

#9

I think its quite easy.
Badints aare the same nationality as you so they can mistake you fro one of their own and you can mistake them for anyone else.
But cumans as part of invading army just has to kill you or you will reveal their location.

But anyway in Pribislavitz both sides cumans and bandits will attack you if you dont have sufficient disguise and speech skill.

#10

Maybe, and yes there where two Popes at this time. Urban VI. in Rome and Clemens VII. in Avignon.
Each of those Popes would like to be the true and only one. But would it be a clever idea to allow a secular power to undermine the power and respect of the catholic church? I don’t think so.
The Great War and the WW 2 are not a good comparison in my opinion to the time at 1403.
Religion wasn’t so important later, the power of the church had declined and there was a much stronger factor of nationalism.
The church and espacally the monasterys where still keepers of knowledge. There doesn’t existed many universitys in europe, espacally north of the Alps and the concept was relative new compared to convent schools. So a priest or monk in 1403 had a higher social rank than at later ages.

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#11

nope, there were three popes. John XXII, Gregory XII and Benedict XIII
The guys you are talking about lived in 14th century

#12

Sorry, Alexander V. the third Pope was selectet 1409 at the council of Pisa. So at 1403 there where only two of them.

#13

touche

The thing is its a mess and even after reading it I have no idea what was actually happening

EDIT1: Still Urban and Clement died before the year 1400
EDIT2: ill try again. At the time of the game (1403) there were two popes - Boniface IX and Benedict XIII.

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#14

Sure, the typ of man who wants to life a soldiers life isn’t most likely a peacefull man.
On the other side only a true dangerous maniac has a desire to kill allways everyone.

True if they would fear that people discover their camp. But Cumans where known to be light to medium cavalery. So I think, that they would do mostly hit and run tactics and most cuman camps wouldn’t be planned as permanent camps. This camps maybe would turn into a more permanent camp, if a cuman unit had a lot of wounded soldiers.

If I would be a Cuman commander and given the task to terrorize the Czech people, I wouldn’t kill everybody. If possible only those who defend themselves and man that are fit for military service. Raping womens and being brutal to childrens and old people. But let them live, so they are able to tell a horrible story to others.

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#15

I hope not!
This kind of concept of the enemy is much to boring. It must be a more personal hostility. I know, at the begin of the game Henrys family is slaughtered by the cumans. This is personal, and Henry wants revenge.

In the beta the cumans are shown only “black”. But there is never only black (or white), it´s always grey! It depends only how dark the grey is.

I would like to see, if Henry must do some moral decision. If he must work a longer time togehter with one or more cumans (not only one quest) to be successful on his way. And all the time he must be on the watch, not sleep to tight or he will sleep forever. In the end maybe he is duped and must run for his life… OR they come to an agreement and respect each other And than Henry has to do a decision… if he is the liar and maybe murderer… not better than all the other slayers.
He should not be the hero. Maybe he can save his humanity on his way, or he will lost it (and everything), choose the wrong side.

Make the cumans more believable and multifaceted. Bring the story to a new level!
At the moment the cumans are completly exchangeable and faceless.
If a foe is THE evil, it is easy to be better(human), but what if he is not so bad? If he saves your life?
Now you must show what kind of man you are!

As example:
In the beta you can go with Morcock to the bandit camp(and be part of the bandits). But Runt decide against you and you should be killed.
I was really pissed off (about Runt). My revange was to kill Runt before the big battle. I was highly motivated to do this and found two ways. :blush:
The point is,… it was personal! It makes the game/story much more exciting. Not so “this” cumans!!

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#16

I don’t believe that all bandits are of the same nationality. Especially at war times there where also deserters from both sides and often both sides are using mercenarys from other nations. So most of the bandit groups would consist of mostly Czech people, but there could be also people from other nations and sometimes a bandit group will be dominated by people from a other nation.
Nationalism didn’t played a prominent role at this time. It was more important to whom someone did feel loyal in a personal way.

If a Group of bandits consist mostly of Czech People and a lot of them where forced to live as bandits, because the Cumans burned their houses and robbed their food supplies, I wouldn’t expect that those bandits are showing a neutral behavior to Cumans.

Remember also the bandit group of Reeky and the bandit group of Runt. They are different in their behavior. Why shouldn’t there be differences between cumans? If you like, generalise most of them as the evil enemy, but please not all of them. It would be more fun, if the player could have some compunctions.

Imagine you are spying at a Cuman camp and you can see during day time, that one cuman with a whip hurts some prisoners badly. Than another cuman soldier arrives and interrupts the punishment. This soldier also offers the prisoners something to drink and to eat.
At dawn you would like to intrude the camp, but a guard is in your way. Original you planed to kill the guard silently, but than you realised that the guards are changing and the “good” Cuman soldier is the new guard. Wouldn’t you think: “Shit, why him, why couldn’t it be the whipping asshole?”

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#17

Maybe a little story about a Cuman soldier who is totally suprised that a Czech women looks like his mother, so he couldn’t harm her and would even defend her.
And the story could be improved, if he believes that this is a sign from God to stop fighting in general.

#18

Yes. A very confusing and interesting time.
Like the so called Chinese curse which says, ‘May he live in interesting times.’

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