Quests and relationships with NPCs (angry with rpg mechanics)

Hello everyone.
Yesterday I played a lot and some of the game’s features were disturbing me a bit. Let me explain that.
In a lot of rpgs (even if I’m not a great rpg player) your character wander in a world where a lot of NPCs have quests and you have to speak with them to make the game continue once you have accomplished the quest they gave to you. It’s a a very basic mechanic of a lot of rpgs. For example in Warband (I played it a lot so I can almost refer myself to it), when you do quests fo the NPC, it is really like if you were not here to help them, it did’t change a thing. You are always trying to be helpful, the guy sends you and then give you money and that’s all. Even if you give a lot of favours to a NPCs, nothing really changes in the relationship you have with him. To sum up, your presence in this fictional world is barely noticed.
And I think it’s a point where rpgs need to make some improvements. Why NPCs have always problems and YOU have to speak with him to solve it and then, he ignores you the rest of the time, like the actions you undertake don’t have any consequences on their lifes and behaviors ?

In a game like KCD, which wants tho put the limits of realism further (even if I prefer the term of coherence, because it will always be a game based in a fictional world, whatever the efforts you do to cover it up), it will be great to avoid these outmoded game mechanics.

For example, yesterday I met Ludmilla who was in a great despair because of a lost deed, a document very important for her future. She was in a hurry to recover it, as soon as possible. I could see it was a matter of life and death on his face, she even told me not to tell this story to her husband ! As a result, me, a good christian, was forced to lie to him when I first met him ! Hopefully, after some research, I found the deed and I headed back to Merhojed to give her the document. On the road to the little village, I saw her so I slowed down my horse, I dismounted, walked to her a smile on my face, happy to help an humble woman. Then she saw me, turned her head in my direction, I was standing there, I looked at her, she passed me and walked by… WHAT ? The same woman, who implored me to help her 3 hours sooner, don’t even recognize me ? Did she forgot the document was a matter of life and death, as she told me before ? Why doesn’t she hurry to shout at me in a way to ask me if I have found the document, as I promised it ? She definetely should be concerned by that, isn’t it ?

I don’t know if you devs have already think to improve the immersion of the game with a kind of feedback from the NPCs once they know you, and are expecting something from you. I’m tired of always have to be the first one to take the initiative in problems wich aren’t mine ! They should walked at you, and start the conversation sometimes. It would allow me not to feel like a ghost, or the village idiot, too good with people : “Hey look, it’s Henry, the retarded who helps everyone, but when I saw him, I act like I have nothing to do with him, even if I put my life in his hand”. Obviously, I’m exaggerating, but now you can see the idea I think.

But whatever, I hope my remark can help and thanks to the devs to make a game I dreamed about. Keep the good work guys (and girls !) :wink:

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I fully agree. Relationships with NPCs would be great…

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This was in Gothic one and two. An extreme case was Mud… :wink:

I absolutely support this idea! beautiful and realistic concept! Why not have (and build?) relationship with each of the NPCs which will determine, for instance, if they are willing to help you or not, or the way they talk to you (higher relationship=better NPCs are towards you!)

All Paradox Interactive games have that system implemented!

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Continuing the discussion from Quests and relationships with NPCs (angry with rpg mechanics):

Hope devs will take a look at this, because relationship bar is not at all hard to make (few hours max, varies with the engine), it all comes down to probability and percentage (look at all Paradox Interactive games that have this implemented!).

TO SUMMARIZE THE IDEA: Why not have (and build?) relationship with each of the NPCs
which will determine, for instance, if they are willing to help you or
not, or the way they talk to you (higher relationship=better NPCs are
towards you!).

There’s also a part where user Frambourg mentions an example with Ludmilla, but i didn’t get what he was trying to say :frowning:

Its difficult to judge NPC behavior in the Alpha, its a mechanic that is important to the immersion of the world but not necessarily one that needs to be tested by us.
Its something that will either work or will not, which the team will be able to tell and everything beyond that will be personal opinion which is valued but not important to making the game work.

I cannot speak on behalf of the team ofcourse but I believe the NPC behavior and responses to us will be much more advanced by release after all advanced reputation system has been the goal since KS.


I think WH is going to push this area of AI a few steps further then whats currently implemented out there but we are still a ways off from what we all truly want at heart, Dynamic conversations and NPC identities(i.e. implementation of conversational AI, and AI self Awareness).

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I really like the idea here. It is very important for games to continue to push realism when it comes to your relationships with the world, with NPCs, etc.

I wanted to add that I think SOME games are making SOME progress on this front…

I like how in Fallout4, NPCs will often initiate conversation with you (and I’m not saying just comment to you about something, but say something to you with response options available. But I agree tenfold that a big step in the right direction would be NPCs having proper behavior based on the situation, like the original poster was talking about.

Another element that I liked that Witcher 3 had is certain missions have to be completed in a certain time frame, or they will fail. What’s the point of an NPC acting all urgent if you can come back and complete the mission in 2 weeks or 2 months, or whatever??

Just a few thoughts here…

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This is definitely one of the thing that WH and Dan especially mentioned many many times, at it seemed like a great part of their improvement efforts. Hopefully it all went well, and we should really have urgent feeling when doing urgent quests.

Also as somebody mentioned gothic - I wrote many times in this forum, that every modern RPG could and should learn something from gothic 1 and 2, as very few other games made me feel so immersed into the world and had so lively characters with great development, relationships and reacting world… Most immersive game ever. And its 13 years old, we can only wonder what could be done today with those ideas!

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It can be seen in our Alpha build already. Miroslav dies in agony if you dont bring a painkiller soon…

It was also confirmed many times that all NPCs (and likely groups of NPCs) have dynamic reputation towards the player. That is the part of the reason why saving is complicated to do in this game. The world is not influenced just by the player, but works on itself… We have yet to see how far will WH designers take the system.

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The example with Ludmilla was a reference to one quest in the Alpha. The NPC give you a quest but just don’t act like she was concerned after. I would like to see NPCs recognize me, and ask me first if I have made progress in the quest they gave me before. It would improve the sense of belonging to the world, I think. And maybe, after an increase of my reputation in a certain area, have NPCs find and ask me if I can help them. I just don’t like the fact that the player needs to do all he can do in the game by himself. I mean, sometimes event come up and you just have to put up with them, although you are not the direct cause of them.

Your post seems to answer me ! I read this a long time before and didn’t remember their goal was such advanced in the field of NPCs behavior. You’re certainly right, its just an Alpha stage after all :smile:

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Absolutely!

I think, if a NPC has (only) one, (maybe special) quest, WH can handle this! They can write fitting dialogues and program reactions…

But the real problem starts with NPC which are in the middle of plenty quests.

Look for example at the Blacksmith:
If you bribe him to get the lookpicks, he knows that you are a thief!
After this you do the flute quest. Now the dialouges/answers don´t fit!!!

…Or the next day, when he lost his hammer. First he must assume that you have stolen his hammer.

On the other side, if you are able to bribe him… he is not a trustful man!!! It should be shown in your relationship with/to him…

The way you get the lookpicks from the blacksmith has an impact on every other quest he is involved.

But that´s not the end! If you solve the quests in a different order, you get other combination of dialouges trouble.

For example:
The blacksmith has only one quest,… ->easy… only one dialouge.
If he has two, there are two combinations,… 1,2 or 2,1
But now with 3 quests: 123, 132, 213, 231, 312 or 321 we have 6 combinations…

More than 3 quest you can´t handle in a proper way.

If you habe handmade, unique dialouges, it´s a lot of work. Or you have generic anwers and no immersion!

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yeah, thats quite a complicated problem… and I don´t even want to imagine what happens, when blacksmith is also involved in different quests from other people and their reactions to blacksmith and our hero… or when blacksmith dies. Or when you attack him and he turns you down afterwards… or when you steal his items or blacksmithing equipment etc…

All this with voiceovers… yeah, great :smiley:

Blacksmithception