Realism of the horse mechanics

I have a question about the realism of the horse mechanics, after watching the new video on them.

The main question is, will charging enemies be realistic?

Something I’ve seen a lot of games do wrong, is horses will suicide charge blocks of men full force. This is not accurate, since a horse is not going to impale itself on spears and is not going to run full force into the equivalent of an armored Human wall. Will the horses in this game stop or move around groups of men when you try to run into them?

Another question I think to ask, can they be frightened or otherwise cause the rider to lose control?

yes, they already spoke of horse path finding and avoidance ai.

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Very well trained combat horses commit suicide on command by running into a wall. Nowadays there is no fitting equivalent. But the past centuries declared it neccessary for a battle.
Today: Either break a horse’ own will or poison it with special drugs and you get such a horse-berserk. (That’s no manual!)

But the main method will be the horse’ trust towards the rider.

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I think scipi was talking more about battles. Weren’t the horses trained to charge in battle somehow? I already have seen horses not minding shots fired from canons on Hussite battle reenactments, maybe there were even tougher horses back then :smiley:

probably myth to be honest. also, please find a credible source for horses running into walls, it would be enlightening if it isn’t just made up fantasy.

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Where do you get this idea? Heavy cavalry NEVER charges massed infantry ever. That’s just a basic rule of war. They will charge into a disorganized group of levy for example as they do not have the disciple to stand and resist. Charges were a revolving affair where the cavalry would gallop for a very short amount of time at the enemy (from a close range, not across the battlefield) and only if they enemy break or they spot a weakness do they charge in. If the enemy holds firm, then they and the horses would die. The horseman needs the enemy to break so as to take advantage of their inherent killing abilities.

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They only showed as far as it went for environmental obstacles. Not for how they act in battle.

@DannyTheDog @Klogg, generally you would charge troops that are more loosely organized or to rapidly get to the flanks of an enemy. Think crossbow men, musketeers, etc. You are not going to charge full force to a dense group of men, particularly pikemen. Even if you could get the horse to do it, the combined group of men will stop the horse’s momentum and the rider will go flying off. Alternatively, if one of the enemy swipes at the horses legs and it falls mid gallop, the rider will also fall and hit the ground will the full force the horse was moving.

Actually, it was for this reason the square formation was developed in later periods to counter horse charges.

You still speak of just one single horse. Do not forget that there would be more. Think of herd effect (is it called so?), the horses will much less likely stop in big groups. Of course the wall of men will eventually stop the horse, but I don’t think we can fully imagine what would happen. Cavalry certainly did attack foot troops even against spikes though.

Are we talking about horses’ characters or about war and battle tactics? I spoke about the first and the abilities of a horse when directed by a rider.

I state: A well trained (and doped) battle horse WILL run against a wall ON COMMAND.

You are talking about if there is any use in the immolation of a horse if you face a bundle of spears and lances. To answer this: There is no use, but there is no use by decision of the rider and military expert/soldier. The horse won’t think about sense or nonsense to run into a spearhead.

The 1st post here suggested that horses might not follow the rider’s command. With this @Scipi is right.
Further he suggested that an ingame horse may start to balk if the fear level is higher than the confidence level.
And this idea I definitely like very much. I just tried to correct the reason for the suggestion.

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Actually Warhorses would charge a wall of armed men, as that is specifically what they were trained to do. That is why cavalry charges were so effective. A well trained warhorse would run down infantry and kick people that would attack it when standing still. Things were a lot different back then, (no PETA to be seen haha)

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I think it will be interesting to see if warhorse allow horses to attack via kicking and biting as horses were trained to do so during real battles. And hopefully fighting on horseback won’t be as sloppy as on other certain games…

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The Point of horseriders in combat was to never stop moving because the second you stopped in a group of soldiers you would get pulled off and its pretty easy to off balance someone on horseback if they stop.

As others have said the idea was to charge into a unit of soldiers about to break and flee because that aloud to continue through and cut them down, this was hard on trained soldiers whom the most veteran would most likely know in the face of a cavalry charge to hold there ground as it can turn horses or use spears which can also turn them back.

A good example of horses being played is Alexander the Great and in one battle he trapped chariots in a special formation to cut down there riders

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This seems to be mainly a discussion on the horse’s mechanics during battle. Is anyone interested in just the normal mechanics? Will the horse only be able to run a certain amount each day? Horses do have endurance limitations and carrying around an armored knight or heavy packs will be taxing on the horse. I would like to see the realism in game where horses can be “ridden into the ground” and you either need to stop using the horse to rest it or switch mounts entirely. I have never liked the infinite stamina horses or player characters in game.

O how fun it will be to rid your horse into the ground :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m just hoping the animations of the horse are greatly improved. In the live stream they showed the jumping animation of the pre-alpha build, and all that happened was the horse’s head going further up the screen, the player head stayed at the same height.

During the live stream I’ve thought that it will be interesting to have a “horseman” skill in the game. Because as we already know, the horse’s behaviour will be based on player’s commands and AI as well. Thus, If we want to have a realistic game, there is an opportunity to change percentage of AI part in the control of the horse by combination of the main character’s skill level and, for example, stats of this particular horse. I think, it will be interesting to start the game with low level of “horseman” skill and it can cause such situation as your horse doesn’t want to change pace, stop or turn at the moment when you want)) Or it just can go away if you dismount. But if you train your skill and use a trained horse the situation will be rather different.
I just want to say that there are many games in which we can ride on a horse but in all of them a horse looks like a bike with 4 legs, even in M&B. And if there is a plan already to add AI for horses, it shouldn’t be so difficult to make this AI a bit more complex. Especially, it seems that we will have a dog companion)) and it will be an animal with advanced AI.

Horses can be trained, look at police horses today, Maggie Thatcher used mounted police officers to charge the ranks of miners that were striking in the UK in the 1980s.
The Spanish Riding School still teaches horses and people the techniques that war horses used in bygone days, but now it is focused on entertainment rather than war.
There are still many horse schools around the world that still do this.

Poll tax riots in 1990, where you can see at least one person run down and trampled by horses

Miner’s strike 1984 first charge is at about 2:45 into the video

You cannot compare a disorderly mob of miners and a standing army. If you are facing a group of levied poorly trained and equipped infantrymen, you can charge them easily. Half of them will start running away even before the horses reach them and the rest will not be able to create tight enough formation to stop them and also start running away (you cannot outrun a horse, but you can outrun your comrades whose bodies will slow the horses down). But if you are facing a disciplined group of well-trained pikemen, you (and your horse) would be charging to your death. Pikemen formations have a weakness though - they are hard to turn around (which is why the phalanx was replaced by the legion which is much more mobile…but that was before the invention of stirrups and plate armour which made horsemen much deadlier and so there was a need for pikemen again). If you can encircle them and attack from the back, then that is another way of using horse charges.

I guess that either cataphracts (originally Parthian, later Eastern Roman or Sassanid and probably used by some Arabians as well) or especially later their late middle ages equivalent (with full plate covering the rider and the horse) could even successfully charge a solid group of men, but again, not pikemen (or a phalanx which is essentially the same thing).

Cavalary was mostly used for killing the routing enemy and for flanking (and then you have eastern horse archers but that is a whole different category). This is actually when most casualties were suffered. Real battles were nothing like hollywood movies where you see a battle formation very quickly changing into man to man combat. It looks more dramatic and is also cheaper to film (in a scene you don’t have hundreds of soldiers, but a couple at best), but it is not real at all. A typical battle was about breaking the enemy formation…after which bloodshed in the ranks of the losers was delivered by the cavalary. Before that moment the losses on either side were minimal though. Real battles were more about discipline and endurance than about swordswinging skills because a steadily advancing orderly formation always beats loose groups of essentially individually fighting men as often demonstrated by Roman army (while it still was orderly and disciplined, i.e. not so much towards the end of the Western empire) or the Macedonian armies under Alexander and the diadochi who often fought against much less disciplined foes (who otherwise usually did not have worse weapons, fighting skills or bravery).

A good example of what a real battle actually looked like is the first scene in Rome (the HBO/BBC TV Series) where the soldiers hold a line and are actually ordered by the centurion to keep it like that instead of trying to be heroes on their own. The later battles in that series are sadly more along the lines of typical movie depiction (or not present at all for budget reasons).

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