Realistic sword combat?

i start with a stab, follow up with a stab, hit again with a stab, and keep on stabbing til i run out of stamina or they die…seems to kill just about everyone.

my stab are never blocked…maybe my system is too slow for the AI to process a block.

IIRC, Ringeck is largely a gloss translating Liechtenauer’s Merkverse into plain instructions than it is an independent treatise. Talhoffer is when you really begin to see more of an evolution of Liechtenauer out of the Germans rather than a reproduction. And I thought I’d read somewhere that the Goliath Manuscript is actually of suspect historicity.

The problem is how would you implement a lot of this complexity while still making it accessible. I know I’d love to see fühlen implemented because of how that would affect the flow of a fight, but without the tactile feedback it would be very difficult to make work.

I suppose one way to do it would be combining our current mouse-directed directional attack/parry system with some form of QTEs for more advanced techniques. IE if you’re in the bind and your opponent is pressing hard you get a “X” prompt, and hitting that particular button causes you to go weak in the bind to counter his strength.

Without getting over technical, not only Ringeck is a glossed version, all the manuscript traditions we have for Liechtenauer are glossed versions (even de Dobringer Codex (I conciously keep on talking about the Dobringer Codex) is a glossed version, at least for the Blossfechten part, the Rossfechten is without gloss). Interestingly, these glosses can vary quite some bit. For instance, the ausernymn techniques under the nachreizen hauptstuck differ greatly between Ringeck and the Pseudo-Von Danzig, so I would refrain from simply terming them explanations (there is some considerable variance between the texts, and then we’re not talking the Codex Ringeck vs the Glasgow manuscript, which is also a strange duck :slight_smile: ).

I have heared the rumours concerning the Goliath. As far as I can tell, the paleography is certainly consistent with ca. 1500, so I am still waiting for a decent publication to back-up these rumours. Now that being said, whether the Goliath was really commissioned by Maximilian is of course far from certain, and there are some strange things in the Goliath (not so much textually, but more with the illuminations: for instance with the Krumhau). Personally, I analyzed the Goliath for its Rossfechten part and there everything seems to be rather straightforward, with the exception that it breaks the original structure (sometimes in a really awkward way), but then again that is medieval source analysis for you.

With consideration of Talhoffer, I am less enthusiastic as you are, since Talhoffer is really hard to interpret, as there is barely any textual information. The techniques on themselves are doable, but to gain an insights into fighting as a holistic system, that is much harder. When you have to take that to horseback, it really becomes a bit harder (luckily, however, Talhoffer still remains rather close to the general tenets of Liechtenauer), although he has some interesting things and some interesting add-ons (for instance, he is the only one who depicts a simple jousting encounter on the left hand).

That’s the technical stuff: How to put that into a game system is of course another question. Now in consideration to the bind you can make that very simple to very hard. For instance (and you seem well informed about the techniques, so I am not going to explain them in full), let’s take tuplieren und mutieren (this would actually be based on an exercise I often gave my students). If the opponent is strong in the bind, you do tuplieren, if he is weak mutieren (so two different buttons). Now if somewhere on the screen you can indiacte strong and weak (by a bar, colour, icons, etc.), the player has to press the correct button to do either the mutieren or tuplieren.

You could apply a similar simple logic to any bind (of course that would not allow you to specify the bind itself). If you wanted to have more complexity, you could add a mouse function as you suggested. So, I think there are many options, but even with relatively simple commands, you can get a lot of stuff in (of course, it would be mainly preprogrammed moves, which are the result of well-timed relatively simple commands)

As a small note, I do agree however that if you put a master in the game, it should be Talhoffer, than he can make his little air (this is not just rearing, his horse is actually walking or jumping forward in this move) in his first scene of introduction :slight_smile: . I would love that!

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Our combat needs to be more simple and less complex compared to real combat, as you need to control it in the game. But it is already really complex and for some players too complex. Other players like your would like to have an even more complex combat. But we have to find the sweet spot here.

I am one of those, whi complained about current combat controlls, but that does not mean I am against realism and in fact, realism is NOT necessarily more complexity in controlls. I like the ideas of OP. I believe two different topics are being mixed together (because they relate to each other):

  1. combat controlls
    They are too complex and too clumsy (at least for keybord and mouse); for example the “Q” button is horrible
  2. combat realism
    I can imagine even more realism in the combat comapared to the current beta

It is like the difference between Operation Flashpoint (the one from Bohemia Interactive) or Arma on one side and Red Orchestra or Insurgency on the other.

Arma has too complex controlls, where you feel like contrlling kind of a “human mech” (too many keys to remember and to control your avatar), while Red Orchestra was successful to introduce great protion of realism with intutive and quite minimalistic controlls (SMART controlls - some keys with multiple functions changing according to situation, something fully automatic).

Honestly, current Kingdom Come is more like Arma for me:(
So, please, reduce the number of keys and make them SMART - it will be easier to control (even for the casual players), while you can add realism and features like discribed in OP. Not an easy task, but doable.

Minor adjustments to control mapping are all that are needed.

With block moved from “q” to {left shift} the hand opens up into a convenient shape.

I use this mapping (LMB attack, RMB secondary attack, Shift block) as my re-mapping for W3, and it would work as well here.

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