Realistic sword combat?

Combat system
#1

I have some real world experience of fighting with cold steel weaponry ranging from Viking era axes and swords to sabre fencing techniques taught in the early 1800’s i.e not the modern day sports fencing which is ridiculous and has nothing to do with combat. One thing I miss in KCD (don’t know if it will be introduced or not) are melee attacks, kicks, take downs and grapples during sword combat.

During training I have learnt to use the pommel and peen block to inflict damage to opponents but also fists, knees and feet. A useful technique when fightning without a shield is to catch the opponents sword with the guard then grab his elbow with my free hand while using his momentum to control his body and then move around him to cut him from behind. There are several more techniques like that which are effective during combat. The sword fighting in KCD seems very “clean” in my opinion.

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#2

Thanks for your feedback. Our combat needs to be more simple and less complex compared to real combat, as you need to control it in the game. But it is already really complex and for some players too complex. Other players like your would like to have an even more complex combat. But we have to find the sweet spot here. :slight_smile:

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#3

There are special moves. If you successfully make a combo you make a special move…
But in combat I´m not an expert. :smile:
Have you seen the Videoupdate 13? Take a look.

#4

I agree. It’s too complex for me atm. LMB/RMB should be enough, otherwise the designers do it badly :wink:

#5

Here is a video to illustrate what I am talking about:

Note that this is during a exhibition so the moves are kind of slow to show the audience different techniques. Even if the combatants are using heavy padding under the medieval clothing and the swords are blunt I can promise it DOES hurt.

@DrFusselpulli: Thank you for the restaurant suggestion btw . A reservation has been made at “Krčma u sedmi švábů”. :slight_smile:

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#6

To implement grapples animations don’t mean that the combat will be more difficult.
Why not more animations on one direction/button. Or implement it as a “easy” (left attack than right attack) combo. Or as finishing moves?KC:Ds Combat should be more simple and more immersive. That is the way.

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#7

Videoupdate 13

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#8

If you get close enough, you auto grapple. From there you can kick or pommel strike. There are planned auto takedowns from the rear, but I got the impression those were out of combat and part of the stealth system. Perhaps they will also be part of the combat model with perks or sufficient skill.

The funny thing is, there’s another thread complaining about how complicated the combat is, and how some people can’t even beat one person. Personally, I’d like less random swinging/stabbing and more grappling and shoving your sword into a vulnerable spot, or across it in a slash, than what we have now. You can hit someone ten times and all you’re doing is love tapping them. It is also, as you said, a little “clean” or it feels like a practice session.

As I said in the other thread from the other perspective though, a difficulty setting for combat would solve these problems. Easy mode for the people that want it, and a more hardcore and realistic mode for those that don’t want the easy mode.

#9

Yes, when a part says to hard, and another they like it more hardcore, than I would say it´s just right… :smile:

#10

I think the time to kill could be upped quite a bit. Really brakes immersion when i slash an mans bare head five times and he doesn’t go down.

#11

Well I agree with that :slight_smile: When going for realism, all people should die fast, otherwise it just feels weird

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#12

This depends tho. If your opponent is wearing full plate armor and you have a sword, In real life you could keep hitting that armor all day long without hurting the opponent too bad. They key is to find spots without armor.

When fighting against unarmored opponent however this is true. I was fighting a guy without a helmet and it took 5 swings to the head till he died. also the way they die is a bit silly, They just turn into ragdolls and fall into the ground and it looks kinda akward and I think that there should be a bigger sense of impact in it.

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#13

The death animation are not final, are just placeholders. :slightly_smiling:

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#14

Since I have a post that brings up the combat system, and call it atrocious, it’s not because it’s badly designed, but badly implimented. All those moves you see in the video above? Look nothing like what we have. Outside of the training ring, there are almost no parrys, dodges, or grapples because any attempt to do those typically has your character just stand there and gets you hit. Thus the “whack em till they fall” method is the main/best way to win at all at the moment. I want the technical fighting myself, but it needs a much better way of executing it.

#15

I’m not sure how you fight, but I start with a stab and then wait for them to parry, and I parry their counter-attack. that gets me going and I start slashing and stabing after that.
So I’m happy with parries/dodges mostly, it’s the lack of agressiveness of AI that is a problem.

#16

I haven’t tried on the combat centric character, maybe it’s different, but the jack of all trades character is almost entirely unable to parry/dodge. Stabs are almost ALWAYS blocked. And AI, outside of when they bug out, certainly try fairly well to kill me that I’m in a constant retreat where I move forward, throw a flurry of hits, and then fall back for more distance, orient, and regain stamina. But at least on this character almost any attempt at dodge or parry results in massive damage incurred.

#17

Try the fighter character, it fights quite well.

#18

I have now, and it does play differently. I tested out the parry and block systems on it, and it was a completely different experience. I still have considerable issues with it though, from how the camera performs (very easy to swing your view away from your opponent) to the locked on combat…it feels like a sword fighting game on rails…

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#19

well, my point was that the parry/dodge depends on the skill evel, just like in any RPG game.
Obviously there are issues, that’s why it’s BETA :slightly_smiling:

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#20

I agree with the initial post that there are some possibilities to include more accurate historical sword play. That being said, I must equally admit that the fighting in this game already looks a lot better than in many others (which are either simple slashing or over-the-top choreographed fighting scenes).

Next to a professional medievalist, I have also been doing HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) for ten years now (seven t years of them instructing it at SwArta). At the moment, I do not provide regular instruction anymore, as I am now focusing on reconstructing the medieval martial arts on horseback.

I will probably write a more lengthy comment on the combat section, but as far as this topic is concerned, I do think there are possibilities within the initial framework of the game devellopers (although I suspect that the game is already much to far to integrate it. Nonetheless, keep it in mind for an expansion or a next game ;)).

Now, I have not yet figured out the complete fight system (I have been learning a little bit on my own, depriving three villages of all its inhabitants, but I have missed the training in the camp, so I will certainly check that out next (I’ve killed Timmy anyway, sounds a bit like Southpark, doesn’t it, Oh my God, they killed Timmy; how about that for an easter egg).

Anyway, back on topic. As far as I can assess, there are actually some interesting guards in the game and not just the ‘look at me, I am holding a sword in a cool fashion’ kind of things. So that’s already really interesting. But if we take the teachings of Liechtenauer (which is the most influential fight book tradition by far), than you could build from that.

If I understand it correctly there are five guards now (two low, two high, one vertical): Well this almost complies with the historical guards (you should just add two ‘middle’). Now these guards are called ‘legern’ by Lichtenauer and the art of fighting begins with breaking these legern with a ‘feel’ for timing (vor, nach, indess) and for the force on the sword (swach und hert). The guards are

  • low guard (left and right): alber (the fool)
  • middle guard (left and right): pflug (the plow)
  • High guard (left and right): Ochs (the ox)
  • vertical guard over the head: Von Tag (from the roof) (that is also the one from the movie Kingdom of the Heaven, the one the “Italians call the guard of the falcon” (which is accurate, de’i Liberi describes it as the ‘posta di falcone’))

Now these guards are broken by particular strikes (later called the meisterhauen):

  • ochs is broken by the krumhau (the crooked strike)
  • von tag is broken by the zwerchhau (the transversal strike)
  • pflug is broken by the shielhau (the squinting strike)
  • alber is broken by the sheitelhau (the skull strike)

There is a fifth strike, the zornhau (the strike of wrath) which is performed when someone attacks you with a strike from above.

Now all these strikes have follow-ups which are described (involving one of what is called the zwolf stucken, which entail twelve principles). Just to render an example (actually the first part of the zornhau):

  • opponent strikes from above -> zornhau -> opponent displaces the sword to the side -> zucken (‘pulling’, which is draw your sword of the opponent’s blade, as he is pushing sideways, and strike him) -> oppenent displaces again -> you come in the bind and stab him (relating to the principle of abzetzen).

Now these follow-ups are actually rather easy to put in, as the moves look diffferent but it is mostly about doing the right action at the right time, and you can even make this evolutive.

For instance, at the beginning you are untrained, so you fight accordingly: Opponent strikes -> you simply parry on the correct side and hope to strike him again in the next move.

But then you get better (or receive some instruction, it would be really cool to see a Talhoffer or Ringeck popping up in the game, not that strange by the way, as many of the fight books were connected to Augsburg, so in the neigbouring Bavaria, or de’i Liberi (died around 1430 btw) was active in Ferrarra which is not that far away from Bohemia, and Maximilian, a descendent of Charles if I’m not mistaken, even had its own illuminated version of this fight book commissioned, known as the Goliath Manuscript): so you learn the meisterhauwen (so if you parry correctly and timely add the strike command: you perform these hauwen, thereby not only parrying but striking at the same time, which is what the meisterhauwen are all about)

Of course, you encounter stronger opponents, who can now do the follow-ups. So with relatively easy commands, it is possible to get these techniques integrated. However, I do not know if this will be possible for this game. But I keep dreaming that someday, we’ll have some actual sword fighting.

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