Some critic about the clothing system

Gameplay
#1

Okay so in the latest video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWQn10s_QJM ) its mentioned that plate armor would be less effective against axes, maces, etc. From my understanding that is wrong. Maille would be less effective against maces, axes, and other blunt and heavy attacks. Also arrows (unless they are needle head arrows) will not go through maille as easily as you might think.

Speaking of arrows will there be different kind of arrows like explained in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWCN7HId-b8

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#2

Plate armour isn’t actually that great against warhammers and spiked weapons. Take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMsVbUUxUTc

If you skip ahead in your arrow video to about 5:00 it talks about the different arrowheads, and at about 5:50 it talks about the arrowhead against maille (which DOES penetrate).

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#3

Well this is just speculation, but I think that plate armor is better against arrows than chainmail. Arrows have chance to just slide, if they don’t land upright. Rings of chainmail can be ripped appart by thrust, regardless the pin and everything. But it is not so easy, sure. From blunt attacks you can protect yourself mainly by good gambeson and even it is not enough. Because of that knights wore gambesons, chainmail and plate at the same time :wink: And they have it in game! Wow

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#4

@ElfFriend: Arrows will pierce chainmail just fine. It does slow the arrows down significantly, but it’s still going to get through unless you’re wearing thick leather underneath. There are many videos of people testing medieval bows against chainmail, if you’re curious. Also, the reasoning behind the plate armor being less effective against a hammer or mace is because they put a lot of weight into a hit, and it’s focused on a small area. The armor will buckle from a good heavy hammer swing.

@Leontius: I think it would depend on the bow the arrows were fired from, as well as the thickness of the plate armor. A stiff longbow would be able to pierce thin armor just fine. However, if the armor were thicker, and the arrows were fired from a shortbow, it would be very difficult to penetrate it, if you could at all. There are downsides (ie: cost, weight, slower speed, etc.) to wearing thick armor or shooting a stiff longbow, so they weren’t used as often as the lighter armors and shortbows or a lighter draw longbow.

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#5

There are many tests on the matter, but results are very different. Well I suppose that arrowhead CAN pierce plate armor (if arrow land correctly) but it will lose its edge to some degree. And also it will lose a lot of energy. Then it will probably rip apart rings of chainmail armor and therefore lose some more energy. Then it has to pierce through gambeson and skin. Is it still sharp enough a does it still have enough energy? I don’t know, just a guess…

#6

Hammers were one of the best weapons against plate armor, and it has to do with how the energy of the blow is inflicted. A real Medieval warhammer was NOT the giant whack-a-mole mallet you usually see in fantasy games, but was actually not much different than a modern claw hammer. That’s a very large amount of energy being focused into a very small point, like the difference between a flashlight and a laser. For the same reason, picks were also very good against armor.

In the case of a sword and even an axe, plate armor was designed to deflect the impact away from the body. While yes, the axe certainly gave a heavier impact, it’s still going to be affected by the shape of the armor, causing it to skid off and prevent it from making solid contact. Additionally, even if a sword or axe DID make solid contact with the armor, the energy of the blow is going to be spread out across a much larger surface, since so much more of the strike surface is making contact.

Additionally, maces faced much the same problem: Because of their larger striking area, the force of impact was much more spread out. Flanged maces addressed this somewhat, but were still much less effective.

If you’re fighting someone in full plate, a hammer or pick is the way to go.

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#7

I can not see animals skins like cloth. What ´s think about have a wolf, bear skins on your head, shoulders… is used as a layer for example.

#8

Going off topic a little though, I would love cloaks. Imagine leading a certain group into battle wearing a wolf cloak. Bad ass.

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#9

This game takes place in Bohemia, not Norway.

#10

Bohemia folk-tale; the wolf speaks out!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/bohemia-dogwolf.asp

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#11

Another take on this: The customization video showed that clothes could become “dirty/bloody” over time. Would be excellent to see a mechanic whereby villagers/lords either became upset or were offended by “soiled” clothing.

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#12

I agree, platemail would be better against heavier weapons. Though a war hammer or a large axe would still probably crush the armour.

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#13

I think you’re right about plate offering more protection than chainmail, but if crossbows coupled with bolts with bodkin points were available even the plate would have a job standing up to that!
However if my armored knight is 1 shot killed from across the battlefield by a chance arrow I’ll be a little pissed off, so maybe they’ll dumb down/upgrade the power of certain weapons?

#14

Yep but they need to be a special kind. Which lead to my other point of whether there will be different arrowheads…

Also needle arrows will not penetrate leather so if the person has leather armor under their maille arrows will likely not affect them.

#15

Ah but the tests that they put that maille through is unrealistic in the real world. I mean what idiot would stretch their maille out and not bend with the impact of the arrow? Nobody. Check the points about maille videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RssIl2v0C1k As for plate armor being less effective against a hammer or mace well it will protect you better than something that bends like maille but everything has a breaking point at some point even metal. I just don’t think it would break instantly from a brute attack like it’s kind of implied in the video.

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#16

I wouldn’t… That’s why there are shields which should be held in front of a person going into battle.

#17

I was thinking more of a King Harold arrow through the eye situation, and trying to say that a stray bolt that got you in the face would annoy anyone. So they might change the power of arrows etc - all speculative

Also you couldn’t cover your head/body with a shield, one that size would be impractical to fight with.

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#18

It’s not just a matter of breaking:

  1. The focused energy of a hammer hitting the plate doesn’t NEED to damage the plate. The energy of the blow alone is going to go right through and shatter the bone beneath because it’s focused like a laser. You don’t have the same effect with a mace or other weapon because they spread the energy out along a much larger surface. Oh, and also add that almost all the weight of the blow is behind that very small striking surface. It takes no time at all to find demonstrations of the physics behind it.

  2. The hammer or pick, because the energy of the blow is more focused, is far more likely to dent or bend the plate. Bend or dent the plate, especially if you catch the weaker edge, and that plate is both going to put a lot of uncomfortable pressure on the limb beneath, and impair the armor’s ability to articulate properly altogether.

  3. Because it’s such a small striking surface, the hammer is much more likely to land a square blow on the plate in motion than a larger surface like a mace, or the edge of a sword or axe, which are more likely to deflect away.

“I just don’t think”

Stop thinking! There’s people who have a LOT of experience with this stuff, and there’s centuries of practical results available.

“That’s why there are shields which should be held in front of a person going into battle.”

Except people wearing rigid plate armor wouldn’t have used shields outside certain contexts (specifically jousting). Full plate armor made shields effectively obsolete, so were discarded in favor of heavier weapons.

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#19

Actually wearing plate, you still might want to use a shield.

Even though plate provided the best protection for its time, you are still better off “not” getting hit. If you weren’t using a two handed weapon, it wouldn’t make sense “not” to have a buckler or shield with you, to block blows and hits, rather then just letting them hit your armour. Plate wasn’t invunerable after all, maces, picks, and axes were great to use against it.

As far as weapons go, in the video it says swords are weak against mail, it depends on the sword and attack actually. There were swords made specifically to counter plate. The Estoc for example, a long tapered blade made to thrust inbetween the links of chainmail.or against plate in the weak/open areas. It had a longer hilt and no edge, rather it was developed to be mainly a thrusting blade to counter the armour of the time.

Regarding Arrows, this is where the difference gets more varied. Chain could be vunerable to certain arrow types , those that were mad to counter it, with long thin tips that could get betweent he links.

However Plate armour? It was pretty much invunerable against arrows for the most part. It’s a common myth that a bow , especially longbows, or “bodkin” arrows would stop a guy in plate. In order for an arrow to pierce plate you have to be at an EXTREMELY close range (to the point as an archer you’d probably want to be running the opposite direction) or get lucky and the arrow finds its way into the weak area of plate (joints, neck, visor) which could happen.

Ths is one of key things that made plate such valuable armor at it’s peak.

#20

The point is that if you were in full plate armor you more than likely WOULD be using a 2H weapon (note that pretty much every manual that brings up harnischfechten always depicts it using a polearm, a longsword, or ringen with a rondel). Remember, you’re already wearing about 50lbs of armor. Why would you want to carry around another 20lbs (and yes, shields ARE fairly heavy. They’re as light as they can be made, but they still have a lot of weight to them) on top of that? The weight of the armor, at least, is pretty well distributed, but the weight of that shield is entirely on the arm.

Also, where in what I’m saying is it being implied that if you’re not using a shield you don’t try to BLOCK?

Anyway, while there were (as I noted) exceptions, when wearing plate you generally wouldn’t want to use a shield. You’re FAR better off with a heavy weapon (halberd, polehammer, pick, bec-de-corbin) or longsword (or a longsword after combat has gotten too close for your polearm to be useful).

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