I have yet to see evidence of this. However it’s hard to do a lot of research on this seeing how plate armor and longbows existed alongside each other for almost 100 years.
He’s not gonna shoot at museum examples no, but no 9mm handgun will go through 1/4" of modern steel which is where I assume he drew the knowledge from (and the visor is angled).
???
No but then again the 9mm was only adopted by armies after 1904 when plate armor was largely gone and just being reintroduced for trench warfare.
Go research it most people agree thats the range it takes for a bodkin from a warbow to penetrate plate. And obviously it did. Why would England have used the bow so widely against armored knights if the arrows just bounced right off? The bow was a very popular weapon in most cultures.
Well thats not modern steel is it? They could have tried to re create it then shoot at a replica. Then i might buy into 15th century plate stoping a modern fire arm.
The force would most likely kill the guy even if the bullet didn’t penetrate. It would leave a massive dent that could crack his skull and kill him.
Guns in general made plate armor obsolete. If full plate armor was so damn effective at stopping fire then people wouldn’t have stopped wearing plate.
I dont think you understand the concept of shock. If you know anything about shock then you know that unless sufficiently suppressed, such as with jell or foam, then the shock will stick travel even if the projectile does not. If the scenario did happen where a 9mm was fired at a man with a plate helmet on, the man would be killed instantly because the shock would turn his brain to mush. You are looking at this a little simply, because more matters then just the projectile entering the body.
I wouldn’t argue with Dr. Tobias after all he conducted no tests so lets blindly listen to him when he makes a claim like that.
But hey lets stay on topic what do you guys think about plate armor vs a 200lb compound bow? That could be interesting.
Then you’d be shooting at modern steel too would you not? This helm was from 1520-something by which point steel had gotten a lot better than 1415.
A lot of people also agree there is a guy in the sky who killed his son for our viewing pleasure/sin. Five folks agreeing on something does not make it right, again we simple lack research that holds up to today’s rigorous standards.
If we assume it doesn’t penetrate it than the power of the bullet did not push the metal beyond it’s tensile strength. A deformity in this helmet that just barely blocked the bullet and did not exceed the tensile strength could hardly have deformed the metal enough to even bring it remotely close to his brain pan.
That’s true. But we weren’t talking about guns in general. I specifically mentioned 9mm and you replied with guns in general.
People these days still survive assault rifle bullets to their combat helmets without even getting a concussion. Fact is that a bullet is not gonna knock someone over nor turn his brain into mush. The mass of a bullet is quite small, while it travels fast and therefore is able to penetrate and damage tissue it won’t give you the same knock as a horse or a car hitting you at 30 mph.
Depends on the distance, weather conditions, shaft weight, arrowhead shape, arrowhead material, plate armor type, plate armor place of impact, plate armor quality, plate armor thickness etc etc.
They could attempt to recreate the same steel they used back then.
Those use very advanced modern steel and have padding underneath to help absorb the shock. This helmet was not made to deflect a bullet it was made to deflect arrows and melee weapons of the time period. The bullet would be like a warhammer spike going through the helmet but at 1200 ft per second.
You seem to be forgetting that a warhammer has a lot more mass than a 9mm bullet, as does a war arrow.
Also, the tip of a 9mm is generally closer in shape to that of a musket ball than it is to the tips of those medieval equipments.
On the subject of archer armour, as I pointed out, medieval archers seem to have worn whatever they could afford, which generally seems to be at the upper end of infantry attire, because they were generally among the wealthier non-noble soldiers.
Where they were provided for by their liege, they seem to have been given the same equipment as other footmen + archery equipment and payed a salary equal to other footmen + a bit extra to maintain their equipment. Thus, there are period depictions of archers wearing all manner of armour, from gambesons to partial and even full plate.
That would be a lot of effort to prove something that isn’t relevant to the helmets function in it’s day and age wouldn’t it?
So modern steel and a sling suspension preform better than older steel and linen padding when it comes to shock protection? You do realize that if both steels stop the bullet or weapon that it doesn’t matter whether it’s made in 1000 AD or 2014 AD right?
It’s not the steel quality that is relevant when both hold up but the padding or crumple zone.
Now if you equate the impact of a bullet on a helmet with that of a warhammer than you are making one big error. Now I am not sure if you have a background in physics but I am going to assume you don’t, therefore here is an example.
This is you:
You are bound to a pole and I am going to throw something at your chest. Now I am going to give you a choice.
I am going to throw this pebble at 1200 fps at you:
OR
I am going to throw this rock at you at 10 fps:
Now the pebble is your bullet and the rock is your warhammer. Getting hit by one of them is not the same as getting hit by the other. I don’t think I can make this any more painfully clear than it is.
Actually, I was serious and as you can probably see from the words that I wrote, I was not saying that a bullet and a musket shot are the same shape, but that their tips are more similar to each other than either is to either of the tips on some of these:
On the mass vs velocity thing, I think the momentum is probably closer than you’d think. As far as I know a war arrow weighed about ten times what a 9mm bullet does, but could only be shot at a bit under 1/10 the speed. As we’ve discussed though, that’s not the only consideration for judging penetrating power. The pointiness is also important and bullets, while somewhat pointy compared with musket balls, are not very pointy when compared with a bodkin tip.
Dude, you really don’t understand it do you? The quality of the steel is irrelevant when it stops a bullet and only transfers the force of the impact. Much like a car where it doesn’t matter if your radiator grill is made out of titanium or steel when surviving a car collision, it’s the crumple zone (and your seatbelts) that reduce the impact.
That’s not a stupid comparison. The velocity of the bullet assists penetration but when it is stopped the force of impact is gonna be small, smaller than a warhammer swung at a 1/10th of the speed.
Now if I hold a steel plate or other balletic armor in my right hand stretched out and you shoot at it with a 9mm. The material stops the bullet but the kinetic force is transferred to my hand, would you really believe it’s going to break my arm?
Gents, it is funny to me to read this discussion regarding 9mm bullet v medieval armor. I just spent my lunch break at a gun shop and fondled a nice CZ 52 that costs about €150 and which I plan to buy some time later this year.
Even if we accept that the 9mm luger would not penetrate, I am quite sure that the tokarev round would get through. It penetrates even modern standard body armor certified for most pistol calibers. I don’t know how common tokarevs are in your part of the world, but let’s conclude that where 9mm luger might fail, tokarev would surely get the job done.
[quote=“Dushin, post:65, topic:18639”]
People these days still survive assault rifle bullets to their combat helmets without even getting a concussion
[/quote]
Obviously the same thing…wait.
medieval plate helmets didn’t have padding(besides the gambison hoods or something similar they might have been wearing) or any shock absorption power todays helmets are thicker and have hollow spaced in between to weaken shock waves as they travel through the helmet. Plate helmets do not. have you seen what pistols do to people through bullet proof vests? thats basically what would happen to your head if you were shot with a plate helmet on, if it even bounced, which i doubt it would.
Im sure they have padding how ever the padding was not made to take the force of a fucking bullet.
What no it is not. Higher quality steel is much stronger. There are less impurities in high quality steel which makes it much stronger today than say steel from that time period. Ill agree that a .22 couldn’t penetrate but i dont buy that helmet stops a 9 mm. That would be more believable seeing how .22s aren’t much bigger than a pellet from a pellet rifle.
