Something actually amazing (Archery)

Helmets back then just like today were meant to stop edged weapons and protect from concussive force of the blow of a weapon or a rock etc etc.

here are a few extant examples of helmet liners.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn129/Merlon_album/internet%20share/SN852606.jpg

Historic reproduction, notice how it features both padding and a suspension system.

http://www.historiclife.com/images/Armory/New%20Helm%20Liner/Full/P1000935.jpg

Anyways how the heck do folks think the impact of a 9mm round would scramble your brain? Do these people fire radioactive rounds?

To even get near a concussion you’re gonna need 70-85 G’s

A human head weights 4-5 kg’s

A 9mm round has a weight of 7,5 grams and a velocity of around 353 m/s

Do the math.

You have no idea what the impact of a bullet is do you now? Medieval helmets had to stand up to blunt trauma a LOT higher than what a 7,5 gram bullet can cause.

But honestly I don’t think you will comprehend this until a PhD physicist will show up and bring in the math.

And titanium is even stronger but again largely irrelevant, read my example again…

Not true in a lot of cases depends on the type of steel. Titanium is very brittle and cant absorb as much shock because unlike steel it doesn’t bend it brakes.

Yes and warhammer with a focused strike worked well against plate. The blow of a sword could be evenly distributed through out the armor because it hit a much bigger area than a small object would.

I assume you are?

And like i said earlier we will not know until somone tests this

Still irrelevant.

I don’t see how this is relevant either.

No I am not but if the impact force of a 9mm is enough to turn a brain into pulp even if it is stopped by a helmet i’d be amazed. We just need a physicist to determine if the impact could even cause a concussion.

Never said that it could turn the brain to pulp… I simply said it could cause a enough force to hemorrhage the brain or burst blood vessels. Or it could brake bone.

you brought up titanium not me.

You brought up varying steel qualities.

The force required for that is still insanely high.

um, no its not. you fall on your knee and you get a bruise. that easy.

If you are trolling please stop.

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The human brain really doesn’t require that much force to burst a blood vessel or hemorrhage. Humans are fragile creatures and i really think you’re the one trolling at this point.

A sub dermal hemorrhage on the fucking kneecap is not comparable with a brain which is the most well protected organ we have.

It does require a lot of force to burst a blood vessel there, otherwise games like soccer and rugby would have had death rates comparable to gladiatorial fights.

If you want to cause brain damage you either need to penetrate the skull and jab something in it or accelerate the brain enough for it to smash against the inside of the skull, or a night out drinking with Dan Vavra. Now a fucking .50 cal can’t eve physically knock someone over, do you expect a bullet with the fraction of the power to be able to accelerate his head in a backward movement fast enough to rupture a blood vessel?

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I never made the knee cap comparison @Daniel_Boon did.

You dont get hit in those games with the same force a bullet. Once again you make a retarted comparison.

Actually the bullet would not need to penetrate to cause a hemorrhage are you dumb? Hitting your head on the pavement can seriously fuck up your brain enough to even kill you. If the bullet didn’t penetrate then it would most likely brake bone maybe cause a skull fracture which would be enough to cause a burst blood vessel in the brain.

I dont know why you’re rambling about a 50 cal if you get hit anywhere with a 50 cal that portion of your body is either gone or mush. I would believe a .22 not being able to penetrate this helmet but you wont convince me that it will deflect a 9mm. You or “Dr. Tobais” never tested it so if you can find me a video of this 600 year old helmet deflecting a bullet then i’ll happily agree with you. But until you have proof of this dont even bother responding.

Jesus H Christ, I’ve been talking about this the past fucking god knows how many posts.

YOU DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The momentum imparted by a bullet is near to fucking zero for all accounts and purposes. It’s made for penetrating a target and causing damage, it has no fucking power to knock someone over or rock his head to hard his brain is gonna get damaged.

If you can’t wrap your head around this drive to your nearest high school and ask the physics teacher to run at you at at 13 MpH and then jump and hit you fist first in the face.

You survived that? Good, know that’s about three times punch in the face you’d get from a non penetrative 9mm. Taking in account the sloping visor which dents a bit and spreads the force and a helmet with liner you’d probably barely notice your head going back a bit if the helmet stops a 9mm.

I said it as a sidenote when referring to medieval craftsmanship, I cited a guy who is leading expert in his field but you got all anal about it first and then made a claim that even if a helmet stopped a 9mm the impact force would kill you.

If you believe that well then okay, your loss.

@TobiTobsen

I think this thread has outlived it’s usefulness, could you close it or crumple and throw it in the trash bin? Don’t throw it to fast though, you might end up blowing out a wall in the office.

I never said a bullet knocks someone

over quit putting words in my mouth. I said that even if it didn’t go all the way through the helmet it could crack the wearers skull and that could cause internal bleeding.

When did i get anal about it? I was being nothing but polite i was just skeptical about it. But apparently if somone disagrees with you they’re “anal”

I’ll leave some examples of you being salty though.

Really you get hit by someone at 1200 feet per second in rugby and football lol thats pretty entertaining.

Right i believe that it still would kill the wearer but we have no way of testing either of our points. I tried to change the subject several times but you kept going back to it so if anyones responsible for this thread being derailed its you.

So again compound bow vs plate what do you guys think?

You said the shock would still kill the guy wearing it. If a bullet can barely cause a person to be moved than how would you imagine it being possible to cause a concussion or even lethal brain damage?

You’ve been putting words in my mouth since this debate started, changing subject and so on. Honestly I am already tired due to a shitty week, that fact that you misinterpreted most of what I am saying (I presume this is the case) pisses me off a little. Maybe it’s my fault that I didn’t explain it well enough.

E = 0.5mv^2

A light linebacker could weigh in at around 80 kgs
A 9mm bullet weighs around 7,5 grams
Therefore the velocity of the footballer or rugby players doesn’t need to be as high to have the same kinetic energy.

Now we were talking about brain damage from shock

If it doesn’t go through the helmet it’s still possible linear brain acceleration could kill the person.

This mechanism is the same as that of a concussion.

Tomorrow i’ll get into the physics of it. A car crash or a boxers punch can exert enough force on the head to snap it back like the picture and cause a concussion (or worse) a 7.5 gram bullet traveling at 390 m/s cannot.

I said it could. I think it could crack the persons skull which could then cause bleeding in the brain and a host of other problems

When provide examples?

Yes ive tried to end this debate many times by bring up archery but you keep bring it back to this.

So?! Nuff said?! Time to close that topic? :slight_smile:

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So again compound bow vs plate what do you guys think?

Do you mean, modern compound bows with cams?
Well, I only shot once those in my life, and even though I “always” had, hm, let’s say historical bows, I admit I found them freakingly awesome. About their capability, on the other hand, I am not sure. I read some hunters who use bows state that such a thing with a hunting arrowhead can go (edit: shoot. It would look silly if the hunters would throw the bow through the poor animal…) through a deer or break the spine of a wild boar, but I am sceptical as long as I see some valid proof.
Therefore I could give a better judgement about historical bows, but just to be safe, I wouldn’t stand in front of such a thing in a cuirass. :smiley:

By the way, these questions could be maybe partially answered by the help of finite element analysis softwares. Years ago I COUGH-COUGH bought ANSYS, but I never really got around to actually learn how to use it, even though it could get handy - still, I remember perfectly good that it had a simulation of of a modern bullet (lead with steel jacket) penetrating and deforming a - probably - steel plate.
Many variables can’t be modeled too well in terms of foreshadowing, of course, like the inhomogenities of the wooden shaft, the non-perfect arrival of the arrow, the non-perfect axis of the arrow shaft, the properties of the historical steel plate material and whatnot; so testing IRL would be still pretty much preferable. The good thing about FEM would be on the other hand that it would be

  • repeatable in terms of total control over the parameters and
  • the ability to change every parameter differently and in arbitrary resolution.

Apart for the exact question, I seriously think that neither “side” (The [generic historical bow] penetrated the [generic historical armor] / it did not) is absolutely right. The average thing that happened was probably “around inbetween.” People wouldn’t use armors, it it were ineffective, and so is the thing with bows.
So, probably a pack of guys charged some archers. The archers shot a volley. Most of the arrows fell to the ground without harming anyone, some of them got catched by shields, a few of them bounced off of the armors and a few of them hit some guys in the arm, or in the foot. They scream, call an ambulance, the rest go on, another volley, oops, some guy got hit in the neck, bad luck, an other guy got an arrow in the chestplate, it stuck in there, but the armor and the gambeson in the end prevented any kind of serious damage to the wearer. Two of the guys now cover behind their shields and watch in shock the third guy bleeding out of his neck.
Et cetera.
In a way, it is kind of similar question to the good ol’ “longsword versus katana.” Reality is usually complex, unpredictable and dirty, but often restrains himself from the clean extremities.

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It is common to end up with fractured/broken ribs in case of a bullet hitting body armor that doesn’t have a proper plate inserted, even if the bullet doesn’t penetrate at all. So yes, it is easy to imagine that the bullet would dent a helmet in a way that would crack a skull, even if the bullet wouldn’t penetrate.

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I found a video to try to show the penetrating power of compounds.


Heres a steel door being penetrated.

Heres another video where the compound is penetrating steel drums.

This video shows broad heads going through a car door like its made of cheese.

Of course this would all depend on the draw weight of the bow. Im guessing a 110 lb war bow would be the equivalent in power to about a 70-80 lb compound maybe less.