Something actually amazing (Archery)

[Dushin]

I said it could. I think it could crack the persons skull which could then cause bleeding in the brain and a host of other problems

That is true but if a bullet is stopped by the metal hard layer of a helmet than it won’t cause the skull to crack. Even if the bullet dents or stretches the steel to the maximum of what it’s tensile strength allows without breaking it still would not reach the skull.

My reasoning is that if the bullet doesn’t penetrate the metal it won’t hit the brain. If the bullet dents the metal to the maximum extent possible without breaking it would still not touch the skull making it unable to crack up the skull AND the bullet weighing in at 7.5 grams traveling at a maximum velocity of 390 m/s is not able to accelerate the head weighing let’s say 3.6 kg’s fast enough to exert 100 G’s on it so it won’t even cause a concussion let alone cause a brain hemorrhage.

That’s the essence of this whole debate. I don’t see any other way the impact of a bullet can kill you if the hard layer stops it.

Yes ive tried to end this debate many times by bring up archery but you keep bring it back to this.

That’s because I don’t want anyone to be under the impression that the impact force of a non penetrative 9mm round is enough to kill someone due to brain damage.

It is common to end up with fractured/broken ribs in case of a bullet hitting body armor that doesn’t have a proper plate inserted, even if the bullet doesn’t penetrate at all. So yes, it is easy to imagine that the bullet would dent a helmet in a way that would crack a skull, even if the bullet wouldn’t penetrate.

Well you said it yourself if it doesn’t have proper plate inserted. The denting in this helmet wouldn’t be significant enough to reach the skull. It would break and let the bullet pass before it would dent in enough for it to crush a vital spot.

Here is a video of a wz. 50 being shot at with various rounds. It’s only 1.4mm of modern steel and it is not nearly as sloped as the visor of the other helmet thus making that an even more resistant target. Anyways what I want you to look at is how little of a dent the 9mm leaves on such a thin piece of steel. Perhaps equally as important as the knock back by the 9mm, considering they have a loose head with little weight and nothing below the neck the knock back is almost insignificant.

PS, here is the “padding” on the inside of the helmet in the video and that inside an American M1 helmet.

People in those helmets survived the impact of handgun rounds with “Padding” consisting of a leather suspension system. Compare that to the liner inside a medieval helmet.

[SirWarriant]

That is true but if a bullet is stopped by the metal hard layer of a helmet than it won’t cause the skull to crack. Even if the bullet dents or stretches the steel to the maximum of what it’s tensile strength allows without breaking it still would not reach the skull.

It wouldn’t have to penetrate all the way to crack the skull. If the bullet made a large enough dent that made the helmet cave in towards the skull it could fracture.

I don’t see any other way the impact of a bullet can kill you if the hard layer stops it.

Bullet proof vests stop the bullet from ever touching the person yet it can easily crack your ribs or cause other damage.

Here is a video of a wz. 50 being shot at with various rounds. It’s only 1.4mm of modern steel and it is not nearly as sloped as the visor of the other helmet thus making that an even more resistant target.

Yes modern steel that would have been much higher quality than that helmet of yours.

Well you said it yourself if it doesn’t have proper plate inserted. The denting in this helmet wouldn’t be significant enough to reach the skull. It would break and let the bullet pass before it would dent in enough for it to crush a vital spot.

Um what? Steel bends its completely possible for the dent to reach the skull. Unless this helmet was made with shit steel with a lot of impurities in it. Like i said this argument is pointless we have no way of testing this. Ill buy a .22 not doing shit against this helmet but you would have to show me physical evidence that this would stop a 9mm.

Also you keep saying knock back. I never once said a bullet knocks someone back stop making up things i said please.

[Juhnimus]

I would like to see that same helmet test with rifles and assault rifles, these days you rarely shoot with pistol body armored guys.

[SirWarriant]

The U.S armys combat helmet can stop a .762 from killing the man wearing the helmet. I know that the standard police body armor can only stop up to a 9 mm in the U.S. .762 shears through it like its made of tin foil. Most body armors stop glancing blows and smaller arms fire unless you have the plates body armor without plates can only stop up to a 9 mm.

[Church]

I like rocks. Rocks will without a doubt be my primary weapon in this game. Boulder chucker.

[PrasCo]

Oh, yes. I also loved to shoot at an old, rusty metal barrel with a simple, 40-pounder composite-replica bow. When I (rarely!) hit it in right angle, it penetrated the material, else it bounced off while it threw sparkles everywhere like a christmas sparkler.
The problem is still (especially because in my opinion the “reality” would lie probably in the middle, in between the “it goes through” and “it does not”) that probably a very, very little difference in the “measuring parameters” would result in a pretty different outcome. This is why I am cautious of drawing conclusions about - although very interesting - examples. I have seen my old, old and deformed children’s bow (holy sh*t, now that I think about it, it is 14 years old… some more years, and my bow will be able to legally vote. They grow up so fast! :’) ) do frightening things with a bouncing arrow, and I also saw my heavy bow fail miserably against some paper pellet and cardboard. (Now that I think about it, maybe I have read somewhere about chinese paper armour.)
To illustrate this, behold my breathtaking skills in Paint. Yes, I used Comic Sans on purpose.

In the end, true testing would be required, with a historically accurate bow against historically accurate armor setups (so with ballistic gel or something behind it!), other armor pieces and padding if it were the thing, and shooting, and shooting, and shooting again until we have statistically acceptable measurement.
And that would be one bow with one kind of arrow against one armor setup - let’s say from multiple distances, and that would represent the given era rather good - or not.
…and that would still be direct shots against openly present armor, so we couldn’t go into details about battles: So we don’t count that many people wore different armor pieces protecting different percentages of the body with different efficiency, might had shields, faced against volleys and so on.
But…! That would be a start.
Sadly, there are multiple, multiple tests on the internet, but almost none achieves acceptable historical accuracy on both sides, reproducible circumstances, good resources and in the end a documentation one can safely work with. But that’s pretty understandable, since that would require serious time and money, and,like I said, the results would be partial compared to the whole question.
I’ll also take a chance to say that it is kind of easy to prove either point by just minor adjustation of the parameters. It’s the typical case of the “If I want it, she’s pregnant, if I want otherwise, at the same time she is not”.

In my opinion, either scenario is plausible, but looking at the big picture, men of the era were probably had - if not financially, but - access to armours that offered a reasonable protection against most of the threats on the battlefield. Not every, sure. But when the guy is close enough to shoot him in the breastplate, he is probably also close enough to shoot him in the face.
All in all, it was probably somewhat like a car of today. They have seatbelts and air bags, crumple zones, so you have a faaar greater chance to survive an accident than 50 years before (so without armor) - but you are still perfectly able to kill yourself with it regardless.

[Dushin]

If the bullet made a large enough dent that made the helmet cave in towards the skull it could fracture.

That’s what I have been saying five times over and over again in the past few posts. You literally ignore what you just quoted yourself. Read it again or put it in google translate if you have trouble reading English before you reply.

Key words are: Flexural strength/ and maximum dent size.

Yes modern steel that would have been much higher quality than that helmet of yours

It would have a little more slag in it but that would probably be compensated by the extreme slope, thickness and heat treatment.

Also you keep saying knock back. I never once said a bullet knocks someone back stop making up things i said please.

You didn’t read what I said, read it again.

keywords are: Brain acceleration, Concussion, G Force

If the force isn’t enough to cause a concussion than it is nowhere near enough to cause a brain to hemorrhage from smashing against the inside of the skull.

Um what? Steel bends its completely possible for the dent to reach the skull.

At the eye it would be the closest. I reckon that would be 2-2.5 inches or 5-6.35 cm.
Can steel bend/be dented that far inwards by the force of a bullet, probably not.
Could steel even bend/be dented in that far without breaking? Certainly not.

[Dushin]

Sadly, there are multiple, multiple tests on the internet, but almost none achieves acceptable historical accuracy on both sides

Alan Williams get’s reasonable close. However the bow he used seems a little underpowered, the sample size and breastplate tested aren’t all that accurate either. I haven’t found anything that’s much better though.

Thankfully Mathias Goll has breathed some fresh air in the study of armor recently. An extremely interesting read if your up for it.

Matthia's Goll's PhD - amazing plate armour info and images!

http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17203/

[SirWarriant]

That’s what I have been saying five times over and over again in the past few posts. You literally ignore what you just quoted yourself. Read it again or put it in google translate if you have trouble reading English before you reply.

No you haven’t been saying that.

If the force isn’t enough to cause a concussion than it is nowhere near enough to cause a brain to hemorrhage from smashing against the inside of the skull.

I never said it would cause the brain to smack around inside the skull. I said it could fracture the skull which then could cause bleeding inside the brain and perhaps knock the person out.

Can steel bend/be dented that far inwards by the force of a bullet, probably not.

You have anything to back that up?

Could steel even bend/be dented in that far without breaking? Certainly not.

Again you have anything to back that up? Depending on the quality steel is extremely flexible. But this helmet must be pretty shitty quality steel so in that case i have no doubt that the bullet would go through. The fact that simply fire arms could go through plate in some cases makes me doubt that a modern fire arm couldn’t. The brown bess musket was only 1000 fps and the 9 mm is around 1200. Ill say this again ill accept a .22 not penetrating but i wont accept a 9mm. 9mm really aren’t even that small so i dont know why people always use them as examples as a weak round.

[Daniel_Boon]

A sub dermal hemorrhage on the fucking kneecap is not comparable with a brain which is the most well protected organ we have.

actually its not, the heart is. the heart is protected by the ribs then the lungs and all the filler tissue, and in the back its still defended by the ribs, and the back muscle. the brain isnt as protected as you think, and is actually in a very vulnerable position. the human skull has its strong points like the forehead, which is, at least to my knowledge, the hardest bone in the body. However, the back and sides of the head are very weak and and even through your glorious superior plate armor, would get severely damaged, and kill you either with shock or hemorrhaging.

[Church]

Real talk thanks for bringing logic to the fight.

[Daniel_Boon]

cant tell if serious or sarcastic lol.

[SirWarriant]

Anyway @Dushin im done arguing with you about your obsolete armor. Why don’t you go put this one with some plate armor and charge someone with a 9mm tell me how that works out for you.

[Dushin]

No you haven’t been saying that.

Could you please tell me what I wrote below, to avoid any confusion?

It wouldn’t have to penetrate all the way to crack the skull. If the bullet made a large enough dent that made the helmet cave in towards the skull it could fracture.

It would break and let the bullet pass before it would dent in enough for it to crush a vital spot.

Even if the bullet dents or stretches the steel to the maximum of what it’s tensile strength allows without breaking it still would not reach the skull.

The next bit.

I never said it would cause the brain to smack around inside the skull. I said it could fracture the skull which then could cause bleeding inside the brain and perhaps knock the person out

You said it here.

even if it didn’t go through the helmet would be pretty much fucked beyond use and the force would must likely kill you.

If something, be it a bullet or dented helmet, cracks open your skull it’s not the force of the impact that killed you but the bullet wound or the bullet pushing the metal inside your skull.

Maybe this is a fundamental misunderstanding on either of our sides but to me the force would must likely kill you implies brain damage without some foreign body entering your brain pan. Yes of course a bullet in your brain would kill you there is no need to argue that, no need to even say it really because it’s pretty much given (well except for some freak cases).

You have anything to back that up?

Yes physics.

If you take something soft like tin you’d have trouble making a 6 cm dent (depthwise) in it without breaking it. Taking 6mm of hard carbon steel won’t bend that far without bursting. It’s why smiths heat up their work if they wan’t to make extreme shapes in thick metal, it would snap if you try to cold work it.

But seriously do you need evidence to learn that you cannot make a 6 cm deep dent in a hard steel plate without bursting through? Isn’t that common knowledge?

if you got a spare piece of sheet metal and a blunted metal awl you could test this quite easily. You could probably even test it on a more elastic metal such as pure copper to see if you can do that.

Depending on the quality steel is extremely flexible. But this helmet must be pretty shitty quality steel so in that case i have no doubt that the bullet would go through. The fact that simply fire arms could go through plate in some cases makes me doubt that a modern fire arm couldn’t. The brown bess musket was only 1000 fps and the 9 mm is around 1200. Ill say this again ill accept a .22 not penetrating but i wont accept a 9mm. 9mm really aren’t even that small so i dont know why people always use them as examples as a weak round.

You don’t want flexible steel on a helmet. hell if a modern steel helmet is shown to be elastic the model is thrown out. How can you not get this? If the outer shell of a helmet is soft and flexible it makes for a terrible helmet!

Flexible or inflexible hard steel are just different qualities, one is not inherently shitty, would you want your knife to bend when you cut a steak? “Oh no that doesn’t matter it’s good quality steel and I can bend it right back!” No you want some hard steel for that.

A steel spring for your bicycle suspension, would you want that to be hard steel? No you wouldn’t because hard steel springs wouldn’t do anything to reduce bumps.

As for the Brown Bess, it rarely faced armor but it’s muzzle energy is 1727 Joule which with your graph neatly shows it would initially almost have 5 times more muzzle energy than a 9mm.

tl;dr a modern handgun is shitty compared to a musket but that shouldn’t be news.

actually its not, the heart is. the heart is protected by the ribs then the lungs and all the filler tissue, and in the back its still defended by the ribs, and the back muscle. the brain isnt as protected as you think, and is actually in a very vulnerable position. the human skull has its strong points like the forehead, which is, at least to my knowledge, the hardest bone in the body. However, the back and sides of the head are very weak and and even through your glorious superior plate armor, would get severely damaged, and kill you either with shock or hemorrhaging.

I suppose you are right in a few ways. On the other hand the sternum and ribs can be shattered more easily than the skull. And stuff can go between the ribs. However you are right about the back of the skull and the place where the skull joins the neck, not technically the brain but getting your spinal cord severed isn’t fun either.

[Daniel_Boon]

I was also watching some videos on youtube and the 9mm didnt penetrate thick cold rolled steel, so in many ways i was wrong and would like to apologize.

[SirWarriant]

If something, be it a bullet or dented helmet, cracks open your skull it’s not the force of the impact that killed you but the bullet wound or the bullet pushing the metal inside your skull.

Maybe this is a fundamental misunderstanding on either of our sides but to me the force would must likely kill you implies brain damage without some foreign body entering your brain pan. Yes of course a bullet in your brain would kill you there is no need to argue that, no need to even say it really because it’s pretty much given (well except for some freak cases).

If it hit with enough force to crack your skull it would most likely cause bleeding inside the brain. You would probably be knocked out quickly.

You don’t want flexible steel on a helmet. hell if a modern steel helmet is shown to be elastic the model is thrown out. How can you not get this? If the outer shell of a helmet is soft and flexible it makes for a terrible helmet!

I never said soft. What im saying is steel is stronger than say iron because its flexible and doesn’t just brake on impact. It makes it much better at absorbing shock than iron.

“Oh no that doesn’t matter it’s good quality steel and I can bend it right back!” No you want some hard steel for that.

Would you rather have something then when was put under huge pressure flexed or broke? Knives tend to be flexible anyway.

But ill say this again i really want to get back to the topic of archery (what this threads really about). So if you’re so sure it will stop a 9mm put on the helmet and have someone shoot at you with a 9mm. If you can find me solid evidence that a 9mm wouldn’t do crap against this helmet then i will gladly eat my words and admit you’re right.

So @TobiTobsen could you possibly tell us how well armor will protect us from arrows in KC:D. My hope is that plate is not the only armor that will make you arrow resistant.

[Dushin]

I was also watching some videos on youtube and the 9mm didnt penetrate thick cold rolled steel, so in many ways i was wrong and would like to apologize.

Lol, no need. We’re just talking about something.

If it hit with enough force to crack your skull it would most likely cause bleeding inside the brain. You would probably be knocked out quickly.

Yes I completely agree. But that’s not the problem we are discussing are we?

Would you rather have something then when was put under huge pressure flexed or broke? Knives tend to be flexible anyway.

I prefer tool-grade steel for knives, good enough to hold an edge.

But ill say this again i really want to get back to the topic of archery (what this threads really about). So if you’re so sure it will stop a 9mm put on the helmet and have someone shoot at you with a 9mm. If you can find me solid evidence that a 9mm wouldn’t do crap against this helmet then i will gladly eat my words and admit you’re right.

Good plan. let’s leave it at this.

[SirWarriant]

Well i hope you have to aim for gaps in the armor or neck when using a bow against a knight.

I prefer tool-grade steel for knives, good enough to hold an edge.

Off topic but i just wanted to respond to this one. You can find really nice high quality knives that flex and bend and this allows them to be put under enormous pressure. Of course you dont want a knife that flexs to much you want the right amount. Ive had knives that work pretty well to pry things apart because they were very strong.

[Jetcutter]

These forums are poisoned to newcomers.
So much hate.

[TobiTobsen]

I can just tell you (for now) that a full armored knights is like a medieval tank… “nearly” indestructible. You will have a greater chance to knock him out, by deforming his armor, than by actually “stabbing” him . Same for swords and arrows!