Story, Setting & Passage of time

“June” - Les Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry, 1412-1416 AD

So in Tobi’s post about vegetation in the 15th century, he revealed the game’s story would take place in the spring. After doing some (unrelated) research in to ancient agriculture for a project I was working on, and listening to Three Moves Ahead podcast about The Last Express, I thought about two time-related questions I wanted to ask about KCD.

My first question is, will the main storyline continue without the input of the player? I feel the answer to this question is no, but I wanted to ask anyways. In most games, especially RPG’s, everything revolves around the player. The evil Dragon Trogdor will only attack the Imperial capital once the player activates the trigger for that quest. Even though the world is in immediate and terrible danger from Balzog the Lich King, he will wait to destroy the world until the player completes every side quest. This often stretches my suspension of disbelief. In The Last Express, and in a few other games, aspects of the story happen even if the player isn’t around - which is obviously more realistic, and I feel makes for a more interesting gameplay experience. Of course this is a massive game design decision which would have had to be made early on. It’s not something that bothers me terribly, but I think it would be interesting if KCD went down that path.

The second question is more about the level of the world simulation. How much will NPC activities and the landscape be affected by the passage of in game time? Will NPC activities reflect tasks which would have been done in the spring time in the middle ages? Most open world games have day-night cycles, and calendars that change, but the environment and NPC’s activites remain exactly the same. For example in Skyrim, a farmer might rake his tiny patch of “farmland” (about 3 sq m of wheat) every day of the year. He never has a vacation, goes to a temple, etc. Aside from some token activity, he is frozen in time performing the same task over and over - as if he was in hell. Yet the passage of time in the medieval period revolved heavily around the different agricultural activities of that time of year. The month of June in France, depicted above, was the time for the mowing hay. And people’s activities varied from day to day. People would have gone to church, to market, there would have been village festivals on saint’s days, etc. NPC’s have been shown performing different activities in the various video updates. Will they also perform time specific activities? If you walk in to a church on an in game Sunday, will you see a priest giving mass to a congregation of local villeins?

I think MadSmejki already stated they weren’t doing different seasons - but will there be any other changes in the environment as time passes? What would be the technical difficulties involved in something like getting peasants to mow hay meadows and leave haystacks behind? Or a village getting decorated for a saint’s day festival? I’m not terribly familiar with the CryEngine. I imagine that all this would probably be a b*tch to script, and likely extremley time consuming. I imagine it’s probably not a high priority at the moment either. But I think it would add a lot of atmosphere, and make the world feel more like a living place.

What does everyone else think? Anything you can tell us, devs? Thanks!

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Good questions and I thinks they are centrals to understand better how the game will really be.

as you mentioned the transitions and variables between seasons are difficult and numerous to take into consideration and program for.

but the scope and narrative of the game probably isn’t going to change more than 1 or 2 seasons at most, unless maybe you really take your time. so having a fully dynamic seasonal systems rather than just scripted events(holidays, whatnot) might be overkill.

this is personally, what i’d like to see the stretch goal be(if they intend to make one for 2 mil)

You are right - a dynamic system would be complicated. I know even in the Elder Scroll games, the NPC tasks were completely scripted. An AI that complex would be a hassle. Also, haven’t they already stated that this first chapter was taking place only during the spring? So across a few months at most?

I just thought though, perhaps the day-night cycle might only be a cosmetic feature. It could be that only doing the main storyline moves the calendar forward. This is the case in movies, TV shows and games like GTA and Red Dead Redemption. The actual passage of time is either vague or tied to the plot. While to me this is an immersion breaking way of doing things, it does have the advantage of making it easier to transition between changes in the environment. I would much rather have a day be a day, and the main storyline carry on in the background at times, despite the player input. Again, that might be a totally different game to what Warhorse want to make.

Most story driven games follow the time progress <=> player story progress approach. On occasion, this might lead you to too obvious cases of this method - depending on the situation the severity might range from light annoyance to a break in your immersion. On the other hand, it is probably less frustrating in the long run and allows for a more even story flow.
There are simply too many complications bound to an independent time line.

  • you have to find a good pacing - balance between player character progress and story progress (essentially counterintuitive to the open world approach, since it sets dead lines - some you might not even know of beforehand)
  • you have to implement alternative routes, solutions - giving you chances to get back on track with the many story line
  • you create dead ends in the player progress - decisions hours back in your playtime might prevent you from fulfilling a certain time limited task - forcing you to go back to that point in your game history (if you still have a savegame :wink: ) or start new.

From my perspective the last one is the most problematic one, usually you can do other things to improve your char if you have a problem with a specific mob/task and you don’t have to fear that it disappears in the meantime.

So while it might be nice from an immersion viewpoint, in particular if the player char isn’t the big boss in this world, I think its impractical.

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The main events of the story line are predestined. As the story of the first act happens within six months of 1403, the changes in the seasons will be probably tied to the character progress in the game, and the seasons will change after particular events - so if you occupy yourself just with side quests and ride about, exploring and enjoying the scenery, the days and nights will come every 90 minutes of gameplay, and there will be occasional rainstorms, but you will remain stuck in the present season until you advance in the main quest…

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So like Mafia 2 I guess, if the system is really like that, it is not bad because it stick you to the narration.
But you might loose the time accuracy and the perception that there is a real calendar.
As far as I remember, in Daggerfall, they were some festivals and event in some places at some special date, I loved this.

@NippleOintment That makes the most sense, and that’s what I was expecting anyways. Especially if that’s how it’s been done in previous Mafia games. Have there been any quotes from the devs that this is the case? I’m postive you are right, it would be good to have confirmation.

@Asgo you make some good points, but I don’t necessarily agree with all of them from a design approach.

  • You are right about the need for better pacing, but I disagree this is necessarily counter intuitive to an open world approach. If the time-limits are reasonable on the quests that have them, you should have plenty of time for everything. See Fallout 1.
  • This isn’t necessarily the case, especially if it’s a branching storyline. Of course, branching storylines are problematic. You end up having to create more content than a single player might get to see in a play through.
  • This can happen anyway if your gameplay is badly designed. Some RPG’s suffer in that players can create suboptimal builds without knowing it. In terms of story, if it’s well designed, failing a time-limited task does not necessarily have to produce a dead end or a fail state. It could open a new branch of the story.

A game where time progresses despite player progress in a realistic way would probably have to be designed from the ground up like that. It would probably be difficult to make a game with a 30 hour storyline like that as well, for the reasons discussed. Obviously, that’s not a main goal of KCD, and that’s fine! Lot’s of great games have been done this way. It might be an interesting idea for a small, experimental story based player mod though… :wink:

As I already said, I backed this game expecting it to have time progression follow player story progression. I guess this topic was more theoretical and to foster debate than anything. I guess I’ve also just been playing too much Skyrim recently, where as the days pass the calendar advances - but nothing changes :stuck_out_tongue:

I do still wonder if they plan to have the NPC’s performing season specific activities or not. And if they will change the look of the landscape as the story progresses at all, to reflect how landscape changes as time passes. I’m assuming yes, but I’m curious to what extent.